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Indian Tender For Next Gen Subs (Project-75I)

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by tariqkhan18, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. D1C1

    D1C1 BANNED BANNED

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    When China seeks foreign assitance (or takes the entire design) in there defence projects then it becomes totally indigenous. But when India does the same, the entire development becomes foreign or Russian built.

    As Martin stated "India cannot create a successor to the Arihant without Russian technology and assistance." (post no #37)

    For your kind info, the successor to Arihant "INS Aridhaman" (1 meter more in length) is on it's way with no foreign help this time(construction is launched 2013). Added, the SLBM missiles K-15 is ready and tested,the miniaturized PWR reactor is already done by BARC(not by Russians) and even the sonars i.e. BEL USHUS are locally made.

    And for Arihant, (Including the above facts) the hull for the vessel was built by L&T's Hazira shipbuilding facility. Tata Power built the control systems for the submarine. The systems for the steam turbine integrated with the reactor are supplied by Walchandnagar Industries. After reading these facts if someone claims that India cannot build the successor to the Arihant then I would call him a moron.

    When we take a Russian design and put in our own tech inside then it becomes a Russian built Akula class. But When you do the same with J-15 then it becomes Chinese not a Russian Su-33 design.Further, You come up with all sorts of arguments that J-15 is superior to Su-33 and Russian sources are unreliable. That is what we call, the real hypocrisy.
     
  2. D1C1

    D1C1 BANNED BANNED

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    #76--> Wish IN goes for german subs. That way PN will be out-trumped. IN already is the 1st Navy to operate french, german, russian and indigenous submarines. German diesel subs are the quietest in the world.
     
  3. Hidalgo

    Hidalgo 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Considering the under performance of type 214 in Korean it is better to opt for Amur 1650 than German ones
    Refer wiki article on Type 214 Submarine

    ""Type 214 procurement programs of international customers have had a history of technical problems. The first Type 214 submarine sold to Korea, Son Won-il, was reported to suffer noise problems allegedly due to faults in HDW's Type 214 design. South Korean and Greek Type 214 submarines had a host of other nearly identical problems, including instability while surfaced, periscope vibrations and seawater leaking in the hydraulics. While these problems in the South Korean Type 214s have been reportedly resolved, the noise level has yet to be reduced as promised by HDW. The company was fined $4.1 million by DAPA in February 2008 for ongoing technical problems. In November, a South Korean National Assembly demanded price reductions for the remaining six submarines, arguing that HDW was using the South Korean market to correct faults in the Type 214 to increase the submarine's overall international export potential. ""
     
  4. S K Mittal

    S K Mittal Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Welcome to IDF mate.
     
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  5. water_land_air

    water_land_air 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    just pray that subs are inducted as scheduled otherwise we all know the drama enacted with Scorpene as with all defence projects.

    the first scorpene was to come in 2011 but will not come before 2016-2017 because our babus/top ranking officials/etc. in various departments do not want to work more than 1.5 hours everyday.

    from 2000-2016 India will induct no conventional subs while very grand announcements were made in 1999 of plans to induct more than 24 conventional submarines over a 30-year period till 2030. That means we should have inducted more than 10 subs till now till 2013 but we are on zero count.

    and yes, as always, we are sleeping while our neighbor China has inducted 8-12 type 636 Kilo class subs and at least 15 local subs from 1999-2013 while our count is zero. we cannot talk about nuclear submarines here.

    the only golden lining is that Chinese subs are still very noisy and easy to detect. the Chinese cannot expect a breakthrough for many more years to come.
     
  6. Hidalgo

    Hidalgo 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    JAPANESE SORYU CLASS CAN ALSO BE A GOOD OPTION

    pe: Submarine
    Displacement: Surfaced: 2,900 tonnes (2,854 long tons)
    Submerged: 4,200 t (4,134 long tons)
    Length: 84.0 m (275 ft 7 in)
    Beam: 9.1 m (29 ft 10 in)
    Draught: 8.5 m (27 ft 11 in)
    Propulsion: 1-shaft 2× Kawasaki 12V 25/25 SB-type diesel engines diesel-electric
    4× Kawasaki Kockums V4-275R Stirling engines
    3,900 hp (2,900 kW) surfaced
    8,000 hp (6,000 kW) submerged
    Speed: Surfaced: 13 kn (24 km/h; 15 mph)
    Submerged: 20 kn (37 km/h; 23 mph)
    Range: AIP endurance (est.): 6100 nautical miles (11297.2 km; 7060.75 miles) at 6.5 knots (12 km/h; 7.48 mp/h)[1]
    Test depth: 900’ ft crush
    Complement: 65 (9 officers, 56 enlisted)
    Sensors and
    processing systems: ZPS-6F surface/low-level air search radar
    Hughes/Oki ZQQ-7 Sonar suite: 1× bow-array, 4× LF flank arrays and 1× Towed array sonar
    Electronic warfare
    & decoys: ZLR-3-6 ESM equipment
    2× 3-inch underwater countermeasure launcher tubes for launching of Acoustic Device Countermeasures (ADCs)
    Armament: 6×HU-606 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes with 30 reloads for:
    1.) Type 89 torpedoes
    2.) UGM-84 Harpoon
    Mines
     
  7. S K Mittal

    S K Mittal Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    mate u should open a introductory thread.
     
  8. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Japan has a self-imposed sanction, pledging not to export any military equipment.
     
  9. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I think we should call off this P-75I immediately and increase order for Scorpenes to 10-12 units.

    We can have the additional 4-6 Scorpenes with Stirling AIP plug-in module.
     
  10. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    completely agreed, will reduce our costs dramatically
     
  11. Hidalgo

    Hidalgo 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    .
    On the air-independent propulsion (AIP) system being developed by the DRDO’s Naval Materials Research Laboratory at Ambernath, he said it would be integrated onto the last two Scorpene submarines being built at Mazagon Dock based on transfer-of-technology.
    (AIP systems play a vital role in considerably enhancing the underwater endurance of conventional diesel-electric submarines. Conventional submarines devoid of AIP are required to surface once in a few days to recharge their batteries, a process when they are most vulnerable to attacks. Scorpenes being French-origin submarines, the French had offered to install their MESMA AIP on the Indian Scorpenes).
    If India have this tech then why to go for new submarines?? This will increase maintainance cost also.
     
  12. Hidalgo

    Hidalgo 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Source:- http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...ort-soon-sonars-to-myanmar/article5270344.ece
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
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  13. kaykay

    kaykay 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Agree here asIt will save money and time both. 10 scorpenes would be good for now(6 with AIP) and 2 akula SSNs(for 2 CBGs) and 2-3 existing submarines till our own SSN is ready by next decade.
     
  14. Hidalgo

    Hidalgo 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Currently its the matter of time considering depleting submarine force for that sake its ok to go for even project 75-I. Indian aprocach in this regard is more perfect as under 75-I is 2+2+2 project i.e 2 units each to be build by foreign shipyard,PSU shipyard and a private indian shipyard to save time. Scorpene project is already delayed far beyond time and it will take 2024 to deliver last of Scorpene to IN.


    I am just putting a thought in the forum your opinions are welcomed.
     
  15. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I understand your concern, but you see, we are already getting 3 different types of conventional non-AIP
    submarines -

    1) Type-877EKM Kilo/Sindhughosh
    2) Type-1500/Project-209 Shishumar
    3) Scorpene

    This itself is a logistical nightmare. Adding another type of conventional SSK will only make things much worse
    in terms of logistics/maintenance & spares availability. So the most logical decision is indeed to order more
    Scorpenes (with the addition of AIP) until the indigenous nuclear SSNs are ready.

    I agree Scorpene is delayed, but this is largely because of our own mismanagement. The Mazagon MDL had
    already license-built German Type-1500 (aka Type-209) SSKs in the past, and they didn't learn sh!t from
    it, they are still acting as if these Scorpenes are the first submarines they ever saw.

    There is no reason to believe why acquiring a whole new type of submarine under P-75I will make things
    any easier or simpler. On the contrary, it will only mess things up further, it's far easier to build additional
    Scorpenes with AIP modifications while the technical & production-engineering knowledge gained thus far
    in the Scorpene project is not lost.
     
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