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Indian Tender For Next Gen Subs (Project-75I)

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by tariqkhan18, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    It shows how ridiculous IN's sub procurement policy is!

    1. they reject the German AIP subs (which are based on the U209 we already operate), that already has a hydrogen fuel cell AIP system and reportedly the risk of inflammable hydrogen was one of the reasons to reject the U214

    2. they selected the Scorpenes, that didn't had an AIP ready by then, which results into 4 of 6 subs having no AIP at all

    3. now they want to add an own hydrogen fuel cell AIP system to the last 2 scorpenes???

    That all doesn't make any sense!!! It would had been far easier to order the German subs and add the indigenous system to them in the last versions and when IN found it too risky to use hydrogen, why would they uses an indigenous hydrogen AIP system?
    It's also interesting by the fact that even the Germans are moving away from the hydrogen AIP system, to metanol based systems, comparable to the French MESMA system. Apart from being highly inflammable, hydrogen system requires to store large ammounts in tanks, not to mention that refuelling the sub at sea with hydrogen is very complicated and costly.

    :facepalm:
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
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  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Yes and no, the first P75 was to replace 2 foxtrot and 4 U209 subs. So the last 4 Scorpenes will replace the U209 anyway, the 2nd P75 is meant to replace at least parts, if not all the Kilo subs. So adding a different sub would still mean 2 different subs, instead of 3 different types in the past.
     
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Sener, HDW team to develop reformer fuel-cell AIP for submarines - IHS Jane's 360
     
  4. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    But the U209s are still yet to be upgraded with new ASCMs & stuff. They have a long time left.
     
  5. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    How so? They were inducted in the mid 80s and are nearly 30 years old by now, there were reports that IN asked for infos at HDW to extend their life a bit more, but that's hardly possible without taking them out of service for a credible time and that would reduce the number of operational subs even more. IN can only operate them as long as the risk is not too high for the crew, but it's all a big mess right now.
     
  6. Hidalgo

    Hidalgo 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    CLASS NAME COMMISSIONED
    Shishumar**class Shishumar 1986
    Shishumar**class Shankush 1986
    Shishumar**class Shalki 1992
    KILO CLASS INSSindhughosh 30-Apr-86
    KILO CLASS INSSindhudhvaj 12-Jun-87
    KILO CLASS INS**Sindhuraj 20-Oct-87
    KILO CLASS INS**Sindhuvir 26-Aug-88
    KILO CLASS INSSindhuratna 22-Dec-88
    KILO CLASS INSSindhukesari 16-Feb-89
    KILO CLASS INS**Sindhukirti 04-Jan-90
    KILO CLASS INSSindhuvijay 18-Mar-91
    KILO CLASS INSSindhurakshak 24-Dec-97
    KILO CLASS INSSindhushastra 19-Jul-00

    ATTACHED ARE THE COMMISSIONING DATES OF KILO CLASS & TYPE 209 FIRST THREE SHIP COMMISSIONING DATES ARE IN LINE ALSO THE NOTICEABLE THING IS WE ARE USING SUB TYPE 1500 WHICH IS MOST ADVANCED OF ALL SUBTYPES OPERATED BY ANY NAVY SO WE CAN ALLWAYS UPGRADE THESE SUBMARINES FOR LIFE EXTENSION. FIRST SHIP OF THIS TYPE GLAVKOS CLASS OPERATED BY GREECE SERVED FOR 40 YEARS AND SECOND SUBMARINE COMMISSIONED IN 1972 IS STILL OPERATIONAL SO WE CAN WALLWAYS TAKE THIS ADVANTAGE OF EXTENSION
     
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  7. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    We refitted the U209s before the Kilos, in the early 2000s to remain with them in service for another 15 years, just like we do it with the Kilos and why we are searching for P75Is to replace the Kilos, while the replacement of U209s is already fixed.
    Btw, the U209 is not the most advanced version, but the U206, just like the U214 is an export version while the U212 is the most advanced one. Therefore the U209 Type 1500 is just a bigger export version and without AIP, or land attack capability, it's definitely not an advanced sub for sure. The rumored upgrades include only anti ship missiles and some system upgrades, another real refit to extend their life wouldn't make sense anyway, since the subs would be out of service for long too and that is the last IN needs now.
     
  8. Hidalgo

    Hidalgo 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Abe's latest 'arrow' not so metaphorical




    TOKYO (Nikkei) -- Japanese-made submarines seem to be in demand in the Asia-Pacific region, where governments keep pestering Japan's defense ministry about exports.

    The lust-inducing subs, which have advanced deep-sea cruising capacities, are made by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries.

    At 50 billion yen ($492 million) each, they have long been high on the Japanese arms industry's export wish list. Because of restrictions, the industry generates only 700 billion yen in annual sales.

    Galapagos-ization

    Taking growing overseas interest in Japanese submarines into account, the government of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe intends to relax Japan’s so-called “three principles" on arms exports, which serve as a virtual blanket ban on the transfer of weapons and related technologies to other countries.

    The export restrictions were adopted in 1967 by the government of then Prime Minister Eisaku Sato and were toughened in 1976 under Takeo Miki. They ban sales of arms and defense technologies to communist states, countries subject to U.N.-sanctioned embargoes and nations involved in international conflicts.

    But since the mid-1970s, Japan has added one exception after another to the restrictions. The Abe cabinet now wants to allow exports of equipment and parts produced by Japanese companies for the Self-Defense Forces to designated countries.

    Other equipment could book easier passage to foreign countries as well. The ministry and Kawasaki Heavy are jointly developing a military transport plane featuring advanced cargo-carrying and cruising-range capacities. As things stand now, the C-2 aircraft would need to be converted into a nonmilitary version before it can be exported. It would then have to clear safety standards set by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism.

    “Tens of billions of yen would be needed to redesign†the aircraft, a senior official at the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry said.

    If only those pesky restrictions could be waived ...

    Under the principles on arms exports, “Japan’s defense technology and industry will be left behind and become Galapagos-ized,†said Defense Minister Itsunori Onodera.

    The ministry will work out a vision for Japan's defense industry in March. It hopes to reinforce the nation’s technological edge in such areas as aircraft materials and welding of submarines under a so-called “selection and concentration†strategy.

    U.S. companies chalk up some $6 trillion in sales of military aircraft per year, 15 times more than Japanese companies. A further relaxation of the three principles on arms exports would facilitate the joint Japan-U.S. development of next-generation defense equipment.

    Some projects are already under way. The biggest is the development of the U.S. F-35 stealth fighter jet led by Lockheed Martin, the American aerospace and defense equipment maker. Major Japanese defense-related companies will produce parts for the cutting-edge aircraft, and Japan's Air Self-Defense Force will begin deploying it in fiscal 2017.

    And IHI early this month signed a contract to produce parts for U.S. military equipment maker Pratt & Whitney, which will supply engines for F-35 fighters.

    “There is a lot of merit in participating in the production of the world’s most advanced engine,†said Tsugio Mitsuoka, IHI’s managing executive officer in charge of aero-engine and space operations.



    Technology leaks

    Japan's government plans to free its defense industry from “national isolation†and enhance its competitiveness. But there are hurdles.

    One is the industry itself. The country's leading arms makers have assigned their top engineers to commercial aircraft and other products with greater growth potential, and say they cannot readily change their business structure.

    Another is Japan's defense budget, much of which is allocated to procuring cutting-edge defense equipment from leading U.S. companies.

    A third hurdle is wariness: Advanced Japanese weapons technologies could find their way into enemy or terrorists' hands if the export restrictions are further eased. Can the government ease these restrictions and adopt measures that would prevent the resulting exports from ending up in third countries or in the warehouses of arms dealers?

    While Japan is making arrangements with India for the export of the US-2 amphibious aircraft, which the Maritime Self-Defense Force uses, no decision has been made on how far the principles should be relaxed.

    The Abe administration’s defense policy -- including plans to establish a National Security Council, modeled on that of the U.S., and permit Japan to ignore the constitutional ban on exercising collective self-defense -- will represent a major turnaround.

    There is also wariness over the government discarding defense principles that have been accumulated under the country's pacifist constitution.

    What is needed before this takes place is debate. How can Japan maintain its pacifist posture, defend its national interests and help to bring about global peace?
     
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  9. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    [​IMG]

    L&T's "coastal submarine" design.
    [MENTION=9307]WMD[/MENTION]
     
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  10. brahmos_ii

    brahmos_ii Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Russian shipbuilders could adopt the design of submarines for an upcoming Indian tender to accommodate Brahmos missiles and an Indian-made air-independent propulsion system, the Rubin design bureau said Thursday.

    Russia is planning to offer its fourth-generation Amur-1650 boats in India’s $ prospective 11.8-billion tender for the supply of six “stealth†diesel-electric submarines. France, Germany and Spain have also said they will take part in the tender, which the Indian Defense Ministry is expected to open in the near future.

    “We have considered arming Amur-1650 with vertical launchers, and have made significant progress in designing these launchers for our Club-S missile systems,†said Igor Molchanov, chief designer at St. Petersburg-based Rubin.

    Molchanov also said it would be possible to place Brahmos missiles – developed jointly by India and Russia – on Amur subs if requested, and that doing so would not affect the overall performance of the submarine.

    Molchanov said Russian designers will also be able to incorporate the Indian-made air-independent propulsion system into the Amur design.

    He said, however, that the Russian system was more efficient and safe compared to the Indian model as it does not require supplies of hydrogen to be carried on board the submarine.
    “We get hydrogen from regular diesel fuel, which is cheap. They use more expensive technologies,†Molchanov said.

    The Amur-1650 has an armament of multirole torpedoes and anti-ship missiles, and can also effectively engage land targets with advanced cruise missiles.

    India is currently building six Scorpene submarines at the Mazgaon Dockyards Limited under a deal with France’s DCNS. However, the Indian side says it needs submarines “with better stealth capability, improved detection range and [improved] combat management system.â€

    According to the Indian navy, the six new vessels must have land-attack capabilities as well as air-independent propulsion, which substantially enhances a diesel-electric submarine's capability to stay underwater without frequently surfacing to get oxygen to recharge its batteries.
     
  11. tusharm

    tusharm Captain FULL MEMBER

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  12. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  13. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 Major RESEARCHER

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    it's damn funny IDRW .org in this link have taken pics from my thread
    & cleverly mentioning that the above image is not copy right protected .
    Russia and Germany Eye Project-75I , Battle Heats Up | idrw.org
    Yes it true i dont have copyrights on those images becoz i myself dont give a sh!t about copyright :lol:

    but i am happy my work is appreciated

    CHEERS
     
  14. sam2012

    sam2012 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Great so it is two way race between Russian Amur & German Type 214
     
  15. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    yes they are going for an upgrade germans have been contacted for expertise......hope they go for another 5-10 years after refit
     

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