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India's K-15 Ballasic Missile tasked to take out China's Aircraft Carrier 'Liaoning'

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by HariPrasad, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    NObody is going to stop a PLAN CBG from deploying to the IOR. No country in SE Asia has the balls to do it. The USN, is the last we should trust to stop the PLAN from entering the IOR. Our strategy should be to let them deploy into the IOR,come in deep and then take them out. People keep talking about the BMs. Nobody discusses our aerial assets which have the legs to strike anywhere in the IOR. Some chap keeps telling me you guys dont have satellites and targeting. Now he says you guys dont have enough number of satellites. I am wondering now, how many satellites we need and have asked him the same. Will post the number if gives me anything like 50 or so.
     
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  2. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Want to add Navy chief admiral nirmal comments on DF-21
    Dismissing China's anti-ship missile programme as a threat to Indian warships, Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma today said it would be a difficult task to even spot the vessels in the vast expanse of high seas.

    "Targeting ships at high seas is not an easy task or as simple as land warfare," Admiral Verma told reporters here on the sidelines of a seminar on aircraft carriers organised by the National Maritime Foundation here.

    "There are hundreds and thousands of ships in the sea at any given time. It is extremely important to spot the ship before targeting it. There are limitations in terms of maritime reconnaissance and long-range searches," Verma said when asked about the threat posed by Chinese Anti-ship Ballistic Missile Programme.

    He said it was "a complex problem" to use a conventional missile against a moving target at high seas.

    Earlier, addressing the seminar, the Navy Chief said aircraft carriers were expensive and there were questions on their affordability and survivability due to their large size while at sea.

    "Some even talk about carrying out land-based missile attacks against an aircraft carrier. We must weigh this against the difficulties of targeting a mobile target out at sea," he said, noting that carriers can move 600 nautical miles a day, which translates into one million square nautical miles of ocean area which an adversary has to search.
     
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  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Now let us head back to two entry points into IOR.

    They are - Malacca and Sunda Straits.

    The former is not easily navigable for subs due to depth. Without a sub screen, CBG will not move in from there. The only option remains the Sunda Straits.

    Once they do enter, they are under 'guidance on call' of IN. That is my poser.

    You are right, the aerial assets and the tracking capability we have, with live feeds into the Maritime Domain Awareness Centre, is stupendous.

    We can 'check' a PLAN move at our whims.

    @vstol jockey
     
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  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Thanks.

    This is the precise reason why India is not wasting time on this. Also, please recall, that any BM from a sub, will be taken as a nuke, not as an AShM. The nuclear threshold will not be allowed to fall by India.
     
  5. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Which is the point I am trying to make. The difficult part of where is the CBG is easy for us. This is not the Atlantic or Pacific.
     
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  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    That is why I was prodding you, asking you to expand. You became lazy just like me :D
     
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  7. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

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    If i may intercede in this discussion regarding how PLAN is planning to Deploy a CBG in IOR and lot of members have asked also.

    I thought logic would have given answers so left it untouched in that topic until now.

    1. PLAN is Nowhere ready to Deploy a fully functioning CBG in near future for next half a decade or more.

    2. PLAN doesn't have the capacity to master network centric interlinking of the all the ships into a CBG. US takes about 6 to 8 months mim to Induct a ship into their CBG. I have post one thread based on the integration of ships to CBG recently.

    3. People are looking at the assets and analyzing the current status scenario of deployment of Chinese CBG in IOR. Which is not possible as they dont have capability recent deployment of their AC01 with flotillas of 7 ships deep beyond Indonesia is the first time that they are testing the their capability of deployment. And i repeat flotillas not CBG.

    4. When the scenario raise where Chinese start deployment of CBG after half a decade or in 3rd Quarter of the decade they would sure be having enough support arrangement as they are making enough support facilities along the IOR which has been discussed currently can be elaborated also and it is bound to introspection how potent it can be.

    5. And Last thing US would want is to come in btw Chinese and India disputes/clashes as they would try to solve it diplomatically than taking sides with anyone. And if am not mistaken Chinese wont be touching US in anyway if they are going to engage India. ANd further more Chinese and US economy is much interlinked now each cannot live without other for next decade or so.

    6. Biggest Question would how potent would Chinese CBG would be to mount a threat to India in IOR, they would have to take out Indian Subs before even entering IOR and they do have massive number of subs and have made a plant which can chuck out a sub every year or 2. Issue would be Quality vs Quantity and after certain levels quantity will out beat quality in case of subs when crossing the number by 4:1 which can be debated also.

    7. And Indonesia or any country in SCS would not dare touch them if US is ignoring.

    All depends on how fast Chinese are populating their assets in IOR and they are really working on it.
    And also how fast India is going to link their naval surveillance to US/Japanese sosus, as it take lot of resources and volume of data that has to be shifted through to become potent.

    In any case current scenario until future if there is no rift in Indo-US collaboration, US will indirectly provide data for targeting if Chinese don't head to their warnings.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  8. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Outstanding summary.

    May I just add that the capability building in terms of quality and quantity is concomitant on Indian side too. Since I have clearly indicated the two choke points, one has to also realise that IN and India knows them as such, and has the necessary 'resources' to ensure real time observation and interdiction capability of any potentially dangerous enemy platform.

    The capability of tracking Chinese Subs is such that we can 'take them out' in a very short span of time, once they cross Sunda.

    As all may be aware, any time an IN ship deploys for patrols/mission on the high seas, it goes on a War Establishment, that is, as if on potential conflict area deployment. Hence, the same may be read in conjunction with the above mentioned real time capabilities I have alluded to.

    Let us leave the platforms off from this discussion. Broadly, everyone is aware.

    I have tagged @vstol jockey to add on till permissible and prudent limit in order to help us have a better understanding here.
     
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Satellites can easily track carriers because they can watch choke points.

    You use satellites for mid course corrections. Anyway, once fired, the target cannot outrun the missile, its only choice is EW and interception. Since the target is not maneuverable, there won't be any significant course corrections.

    Our missiles have become advanced enough to be able to maneuver during reentry, small deviations won't pose a problem. The Agni V is said to have a CEP of 10m. At mach 24, the flight time is about 10 min up to 4000Km. Within that time, the carrier would have traveled less than 10Km at max speed, that's not a lot. A second method is to use a hypersonic glide vehicle. Plus you can MIRV the payload.
     
  10. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Don't underestimate CPEC. :D

    This has always been my argument when people bring up PLAN. "Where will the PLAN come from?"
     
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  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    They are attempting to do that with a glide vehicle. So it is being designed for anti-ship roles also.

    The Chinese have the DF-ZF, the Russians have the Yu-71 and the Americans have the Falcon Project.

    http://www.news18.com/blogs/india/s...adviser-to-defence-minister-10879-748568.html
    a long range anti-ship missile which can prevent aircraft carriers from coming within 1500-2000 km of our shores are also being pursued.

    The long range anti-ship missile is on the drawing board, and we are confident that in about six years we would be able to get it ready. The long range anti-ship missile is going to be a ballistic missile with a seeker which can hit ships at long range.
     
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  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    LOL ... Indian project remains a figment of imagination.


    There is no such program on the horizon in Indian context.
     
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  13. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Sir can you please put some light on the viability of a powerful fleet sitting just next to the choke points?? i would like to know possible outcomes of such an approach.....placing 6 subs, 6 frigates, 3 destroyers, a squadron of mki is already their, few maritime jaguars and few brahmos regiments on numerous islands, why have we never focussed on A&N?? I feel we have an Hawai in making......
     
  14. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Only 1 reason - funds.

    Plan is there, but funds do not match our plans.
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I agree, it's a whimsical idea for India. But it is not a complete-nonsense idea. We may not have the need for it now simply because the Chinese are yet to become a CBG capable threat, but we will need it eventually, because even others will have it. However, the components for this type of a missile doesn't exist yet, anywhere, not just India.

    Ballistic missiles are slowly turning into platforms for other types of weapons, not just a dumb bomb that only falls. EMP is one. A hypersonic precision weapon is another.

    Consider this: What if a Brahmos-2 or something similar becomes a payload that is placed in a long range ballistic missile? This will give you the same kind of strike capability that you will get from an aircraft equipped with Brahmos-2, except it will be a whole lot faster.

    What this means is you can use much smaller vessels, like a small unmanned sub, that can pass through a CBG's detection net unnoticed and then send target coordinates to a land or sea based platform that can fire a couple of BMs which in turn can release a whole lot of Brahmos-2s at the CBG. This is what they mean by a ballistic missile for the anti-shipping role.
     
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