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Infantry to get foreign rifles, others to get ‘made in India’

Discussion in 'Tactical Hardware' started by Zarvan, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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  2. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Once again IA is either reading far too many comics or high on Manali weed. They set unrealistic QRs and than lower them to suit a selected manufacturer.
     
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  3. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Indian Army should do a open tender test pretty much all the Assault Rifles are their in market. Let see who passes tests than ask your big tycoons to produce those Rifles in India. Than Government should encourage your Armed Forces and Para Military and Police to buy those Assault Rifes. Your entire market is several times bigger than a continent's entire Armed Forces and Police combined, a continent like Europe.
     
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  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    True. But the issue remains - Subcontinental politics and populism. Has logic ever worked here? :(
     
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  5. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Well that is the issue you have to resolve and it's time your Armed Forces leadership takes a stand
     
  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    There is a very big difference between Indian and Pakistani Armies, here, the army can not call the shots. There, the army does call the shots. At the end of the day, it shall always be a political decision as opposed to a military decision. Strange logic I agree, but that is how it is.
     
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  7. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    In USA and Europe also it is a political decision but when it comes to their soldiers equipment they don't compromise, in fact for most of them it's a Political gain that we made Armed Forces stronger and better equipped but India despite being one of the biggest Military Power is a strange case
     
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Only the multi-caliber tender was unrealistic. In all other tenders, the Israelis won.
     
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I don't agree with this. Can't buy unless the forces shortlist it.

    Political decisions are made only when the item in question is strategic in nature or has no competitors. Rafale for nuclear strike, FGFA, T-90, American drones etc.
     
  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Alas, your agreement has nothing to do with it.

    The forces get the stuff only after the Finance Ministry and the MoD decide.

    Air force wanted Mirage 2000 production line, MoD wanted to go Mig 29 due to the Soviet offer - result?

    Army wanted to go for M-4 and Tavor in 2010. MoD decided that OFB will make the weapon in India.
     
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  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Stuff gets blocked due to bureaucratic or financial hurdles, not political.

    AF may have wanted the M-2000 line, but it was financially impossible to buy that many jets. At the time we were inducting many types of jets, Mig-21, Mig-27, Jaguar etc. The transition to Mig-29 was an obvious choice after the closing of the Mig-21 line. But what killed the M-2000 line wasn't the Mig-29, it was the financial crisis in 1991. Also ADA hijacked the LCA program from the HAL and IAF and promised to deliver a M-2000 equivalent LCA with multimode radar, FBW etc by 1998-2000.

    As for the army's rifle tender, it was a joke, the multi-caliber rifle tender. The tender started in 2011 and the first trials happened in 2015, it's completely the army's fault. The goof-up had nothing to do with the govt. Otoh, special forces got both M4 and Tavor.

    The only big ticket political contracts we signed after 1995 were Su-30MKI, T-90, Phalcons, Gorshkov, Mig-29K, Akula, and more recently, Ka-226T, Rafale and S-400. All were signed under the NDA. Under UPA, it was FGFA and Talwar class frigates.

    And each of these had a reason behind going for political deals, which is another word for strategic deal. Su-30, T-90, Phalcons, Akula, Gorshkov, S-400 and FGFA equivalents were not available from any other source. Mig-29K was linked to Gorkshkov. Ka-226T and Rafale had won their respective tenders and a political deal had become possible, and all future big ticket tenders will follow the Ka-226T and Rafale route anyway.

    In each of these strategic deals, the govt simply bought whatever was chosen by the forces in the first place. The govt did not make a decision on their own in any of these examples.

    Even the Ka-226T, it was shortlisted in the RSH tender. (Would recommend reading the article, first class source)
    http://www.news18.com/blogs/india/s...-armys-helicopter-inventory-10879-974550.html
    Now the Ka-226T along with the Airbus Helicopter's AS 550 C3 Fennec had been downselected in the last tender having met the revised technical and operational parameters specified in it. So both the Ka-226T and AS 550 C3 in any case have qualified the IA's requirements for a RS helicopter that can be used for directing artillery fire, carry small body of troops/quick reaction teams for special missions, aerial photography, scouting roles in conjunction with AHs, airborne forward air controller (FAC) functions, casualty evacuation (CASEVAC), NBC monitoring, as a platform for ESM, ECM and ECCM etc and to provide dynamic response during aid to civil authorities.
     
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  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    This is the SOP of IA and IAF. They always create such QRs that they can justify purchase of foreign equipment. MBT Arjun and this rifle tender are not an exception but a part of routine.
     
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  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I don't agree on this with you as well.

    Even after all these years Arjun is still not ready. And when T-90s were purchased, Arjun had no capacity to be ready, nor did the support infra exist. Even if Arjun turned out to be better than the T-90, it was a white elephant. We simply couldn't afford it. I support the army's choice on this one. Had we chosen Arjun, it would have been worse than what the Americans have done with the F-35 program.

    As for the assault rifle tender, it was a pipe-dream, but we can't punish the army for being bold. The fact is DRDO came out with the MCIWS, which kept them at the forefront of rifle R&D alongside the best in the world. So DRDO in fact had a very good chance of becoming the principle supplier of this class of rifle had they succeeded. The two other rifle tenders failed because of single vendor situation, shit happens.

    As for the IAF, you tell me what option do they have? They can only choose from Rafale, Gripen, F-16 and FGFA right now. The best option today is Rafale, it is ready for production. F-16 is a joke. Gripen is still in development, no different from FGFA. LCA is a flying camel and we will know its status only in 2019. And LSA is a paper plane. Their choice is obvious. There's nothing wrong with the requirements since at least 2 jets were shortlisted.
     
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  14. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    The downright betrayal of Indian efforts here is unpalatable. Both the media and the army are set on insulting all Indian rifles to the point where they aren't even suitable for frontline service.

    To have 1 assualt rifle for the infantry and another "lesser" rifle for service arms would be unique to the IA and would be a truly pathetic sight.

    What an utter disgrace, no doubt the media and army generals are lining their pockets nicely from the proposed foreign rifle buy, there is no other reason to explain this utter treason.

    "Make in India", what a joke! World's third largest army will have the utter humiliation of having IMPORTED rifles.

    Indian scientists can send probes to mars but can't make a decent rifle is what these corrupt bstards in the IA want us to believe.....
     
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  15. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    When you produce junk they are not going to adopt them just because they are made in India. It's Army soldiers who are eventually going to use them and they are not interesting in using junk
     
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