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Infantry to get foreign rifles, others to get ‘made in India’

Discussion in 'Tactical Hardware' started by Zarvan, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    The rifles India produces now are world class, there's not a single rifle on the planet that has actually met the IA's QRs so are they all junk?
     
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  2. Rajaraja Chola

    Rajaraja Chola 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Sirji. Corruption is rampant in Army starting from Mess Food contracts to Army canteens where one can even get Bullets and Jeeps. When Army Babus make money from contracts worth a few lakhs or a 1-5 crore contracts, do u honestly want us to believe there is no corruption in 1000 crore contracts? If the OFB is made independent like DARPA, they will very much buy OFB made as they will get their due share.

    Selecting foreign rifles come with educational/immigrational benefits to their sons/daughters/close relatives. Tyagi is unable to answer his money source.

    Arjun as a programme is not running properly (ok a failure) due to insufficient spares. I am not sure how much spares can u get for 248 tanks even though Mk1 defeated T90 decisively. If you want to stock spares or make spares u need to order in more numbers to make it economical. Army is the sole reason for the failure of Arjun.
     
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  3. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Ok go ahead with your local modern INSAS and I am ready to have a bet that in no time your soldiers will be crying and complaining about the weapon.
     
  4. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    Soldiers complain aboug everything, that's nothing new.

    Facts are facts, the INSAS MK.1C and new 7.62 NATO version are modern weapons comparable with any foreign rifle in their class and for the price (around 70% cheaper) they are exceptional value for money.

    Fact is the IA has tried out most foreign rifles and they too have failed to meet their QRs so it's stupid to simply label the INSAS as subpar and pretend there is a foreign solution.

    DRDO and OFB will come up with whatever solution the IA requires but the IA keep changing the requirements as they get close and around and around this circus goes....


    Incompetence or corruption are to blame but the Indian rifles themselves are not.
     
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  5. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    By the way this seems to be an update of the conventional IA philosphy- having a "battle rifle" for infantry of 5.56mm calibre (also for all support services) -currently INSAS and having a "COIN rifle" of 7.62mm for RR and such units for CI/CT- currently AKs fill this role.

    So is it simply a case of a foreign rifle coming for the COIN role and MK.1C for the typical "battle rifle" role? Even if that's true there's no reason the OFB 7.62 NATO rifle couldn't fit the COIN role also.

    But then Shukla entirely messes this up by saying it's the 7.62 that is needed for the infantry role when it would be needed for the conventional infantry role instead.


    Shukla is spinning this as the Indian rifle being inducted for the battle role because it's inferior but in reality it is just role specific and has nothing to do with which is "better" or "worse."


    Between poor reporting and pathetic messeging by the army god knows what the truth is.


    @Gessler @Hellfire @Agent_47
     
  6. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The Generals have made up their mind to split the tender between imported and Indian product. Now every evaluation and report will be made keeping in view this dictate.
     
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  7. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Who supersedes the bureaucrat? Are you aware that to transfer the mortal remains of a soldier by a service aircraft, a clerk posted at the Air Headquarter gives clearance? The said person being junior in hierarchy to the Officers concerned?

    How has this system come about? Who, indeed, in India's history, has been a soldier who has served as a RM? Who, indeed, has served as a RM and is knowns for strategic thinking and focus? That being said, the fault lies at the political level.

    I am talking of the production line. Jaguars were already being assembled at the HAL Facility at Bangalore and Ozar had the Mig-21 production. The proposal was to allow the Jaguar assembling to get additional Mirage 2000 production capability with full ToT inclusive of the composites (then the 'in' thing in cutting edge tech for aviation; Mig 29s were not using the same neither was it being offered by the Soviets in the aircraft).

    The 80s was an era of stringent anti-US lobby inside Indian political system (even the setting up of the NBC Cell at the Army HQ at the time had issues of Officers involved, trained at US, being blocked and opposed wantonly). Access to the cutting edge technology at the time would have enabled the development of LCA too. Instead, we dithered over the option of 110 Mirage 2000s made in India with the offer of Mig-29s production line, which too was curtailed.


    Mig-27s came a bit later.



    You have gone off to a different decade. The Mirage 2000 production line offer was over by 1986. What killed Mirage 2000 was the Soviet lobby at the helm! Please recall that Rajiv Gandhi was in power and he was spending significant amounts on modernization of the Indian Army too. It is under him that the Armed Forces underwent phenomenal modernization to emerge as one of the most advanced armed forces outside the NATO or Warsaw Pact.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/06/world/on-india-s-border-a-huge-mock-war.html

    http://articles.latimes.com/1987-03-07/news/mn-8245_1_india-and-pakistan

    Financial crisis had nothing to do with the decisions at this time. It was purely because the decision was political - the political currency of the Soviets was more valuable/perceived to be more valuable.



    Too many rotten apples :)

    Nooooo! M-4 and Tavors were shortlisted in 2010. The Government insisted on local options due to OFB lobby (heck even state owned MDL threatened to go on strike when Anthony, in a rare move {since he barely moved on anything}, explored possibility of giving Private Shipyards contract for subs) . CAPFs back loaded their INSAS as they termed them useless in CI grid and under Home Ministry, got X-95s and AK-47s.

    For Army, things were never so simple. Then they decided in interchangeable barrels as mixed feedback from the environment was trickling in - some preferred 5.56 arguing over the requirement of a carbine of similar caliber and permitting standardization and others 7.62 mm for the sheer killing power. Then some wise man read Jane's :D!!!!

    Incorrect Su-30 was under MSY ... :) He will feel offended ;)
     
  8. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It has been taken in the wrong sense. Let us pause and re-examine here.

    Conventional break up of weapons in an army unit:

    Suppose that there is a "services" unit comprising of authorized 219 personnel (officers, JCOs and other ranks included), the rough break up is of about 62 x 9 mm SMC, and remaining 157 x 5.56 mm INSAS as per authorization.

    (figures may depict an actual unit)

    Now, this figure of 62 are given the SMC, a shorter range carbine, because of their specific jobs and roles. This figure is of those whose roles are primarily support of military operations, are required to perform support roles primarily and are expected to engage an enemy only at close quarters. The ones with INSAS 1B are those who undertake security duties like sentry/patrolling of unit area and location etc.

    Now extrapolate the same to infantry units and to other services units. Each will have elements like this. Hence, there is authorization of carbine and assault rifle accordingly. Now extrapolate the same to the overall fighting posture - Infantry is now the one who is having the role played by personnel having authorization of an assault rifle and the services having the role of those authorized a carbine.

    The specifications for carbines for IA have been stated at 5.56mm. If Excalibur derivative Amogh passes the muster, then so be it. That is a line I have maintained earlier too.

    Similarly, if Ghatak is to be inducted for services, then it should be after it is rectified for shortfalls, if any. There is no way that it has been finalized that these will be inducted if not up to mark. I believe that is 7.62 x 39 mm and for Infantry they want to get a 7.62 x 51 mm .
     
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  9. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Is it possible to just come down to two types like JVPC and ARs other than sniper rifles.
     
  10. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    No they don't our soldiers doesn't neither USA when you hand over disaster to them they are bound to complain

    [​IMG]
    COLT LE 901 can be good option to test for India
     
  11. Angel Eyes

    Angel Eyes 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    What is the difference between Exacalibur and Insas mk 1c
     
  12. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    IWI from Israel launches TAVOR 7 7.62mm caliber Bullpup Rifle in Asia


    Israel Weapon Industries (IWI), an SK Group member, a leader in the production of combat-proven small arms for law enforcement agencies, governments, and armies around the world launches its new 7.62X51mm caliber IWI TAVOR 7, the newest member of the successful TAVOR Bullpup Rifle Family at Defense and Security Thailand 2017 exhibition in Bangkok.

    [​IMG]
    New Tavor 7 7.62x51mm caliber Bullpup Rifle at Defense and Security Thailand 2017 exhibition in Bangkok.

    According to ShlomiSabag, IWI’s CEO, “We are pleased to expand the TAVOR family – the world's most popular battle-proven bullpup rifles – with the new addition of a7.62X51mm caliber weapon, based on requests from our customers.The IWI TAVOR 7 enables users from the military and law enforcement markets to operate in a wide variety of scenarios at short and mediumrange with enhanced firepower – efficiently, safely and easily, with onlyminimal maintenance. Based on what we have already heard from the field, we expect the IWI TAVOR 7 to become a leader in its category. The weapon will be available from the first quarter of 2018.”

    The TAVOR 7 is a fully ambidextrous platform on which the ejection side and the charging handle can be switchedquickly and easily from side to side by the user. The ambidextrous features include: safety lever, magazine release, and bolt catchsimilar to the X95. The IWI TAVOR 7 also includes an M-LOK fore-end(2 M-LOK slots at 3 and 9 o'clock) as well as MIL-STD 1913 Picatinny rail at the 6o'clock position, to allow the use of multiple devices and accessories. The rifle’s body is built from high-strength, impact-modified polymer, and has a hammer-forged, chrome-lined, free-floating barrel for enhanced accuracy and life cycle.

    Additional features include a short stroke gas piston with a4-position variable gas regulator, (including an OFF position – a unique feature designed for special operation needs), a rotating bolt system that ensures maximum safety for the user, and a pistol grip that can be changed or modified. The IWI TAVOR 7 enables 100% interchangeability, reducing maintenance costs. It is available in four colors: Sniper Gray, OD Green, Black, and Flat Dark Earth, with replaceable barrels available in two lengths – 17" (432 mm) and 20" (508 mm) – for various uses. The rifle has an overall length of 28.4" (723 mm) and a weight without a magazine of 9lbs (4.1 Kg).

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/def...r_7_7.62mm_caliber_bullpup_rifle_in_asia.html
     
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  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    You are confusing bureaucratic procedures with weapons deals. When it comes to weapons deals, all weapons are purchased based on forces inputs.

    I know I am using the wrong decade. But it's all interconnected. For example, the MMRCA deal officially started in 2007, ended only in 2015 and the actual requirement may not be fulfilled until 2025. The Soviet Union did play spoilsport, but this effect is temporary, generally lasts as long as the contract duration. Once the Mig-29s were procured, we could have followed up with a M-2000 deal.

    It's no different today. We signed up for Su-30s in the mid 90s, once we got it up and running in 2000, we followed up immediately with the MRCA contest in 2004. This was not possible during the ending of the 80s and beginning of the 90s purely because of money. If it wasn't for the financial crisis, and ADA's interference, we would have signed up for both M-2000 and Mig-29 production in the early 90s. In fact, both aircraft complement each other and both were necessary.

    IAF's procurement plans changed in the 90s because the Chinese ordered Su-27s from Russia. If it wasn't for that, we would have seen the M-2000 production line in India in the 90s.

    This time as well, we decided to go for SE MII right in the middle while pushing back Rafale MII. The point is the govt doesn't interfere in the choices of the IAF, they simply interfere in the order primarily due to financial compulsions. IAF wants a SE MMRCA as well as a TE MMRCA, they will get both. But as a poor country, it takes time to decide this stuff.

    The tree itself was rotten. :(

    I don't recall a tender for assault rifles before 2011. Do you have info about that?

    Yep, the PDC program was, but it was up to NDA to sign the production contract. Same with FGFA. UPA signed the PDC, but it's up to NDA to sign the second stage contract.
     
  14. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Agusta for VVIPs was evaluated by IAF top class test pilots who seem to have lesser knowledge about performance calculations compared to the worst first officer that I have flown in Airline service. How can they clear an aircraft which was unfit to even take off from Srinagar forflight over Zozila?
    Hellfire is living in a cacoon, unable to see the world around him. The cheats are amongst us and they follow what their superirors dictate. Rafale too was rigged though we got a good aircraft by default like Bofors. This game about rifles has now been openly rigged by the Chief himself.
     
  15. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    New IWI 9X19mm MASADA pistol at Defense & Security 2017 Thailand


    Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) unveils is MASADA line of Striker-based pistols for military, law enforcement, and civilian markets in 9X19mm caliber at Defense and Security Thailand 2017 exhibition in Bangkok.

    [​IMG]
    New Israeli-made IWI MASADA 9mm pistol at Defense and Security Thailand 2017 exhibition in Bangkok.

    According to ShlomiSabag, IWI’s CEO, “We are proud to launch this new line of pistols – the MASADA – following a development process that took several years, based on requests from our customers. The new Striker-based line places special emphasis on operational safety and simplicity of maintenance, as well as a high level of ergonomics and ease of use. The pistol will be available to our customers from Q1/18.”

    The MASADA has several advanced safety mechanisms including a firing pin block safety, a clean and crisp trigger reset with a built-in trigger safety, and a fast, easy and safe takedown – with no need to pull the trigger. The pistol can be provided with or without manual safety. It has an easy racked slide with improved front and rear cocking serrations, enhanced ergonomics with the IWI grip angle, and a low barrel axis for reduced recoil. The body has a glass-reinforced polymer frame as well as a polygonal cold hammer forged barrel with a 1:10RH twist rate.

    Additional features include fully ambidextrous operating controls and fixed 3-dot tritium illuminated Meprolight night sights. It offers 100% interchangeability with a compatible trigger mechanism housing, reducing maintenance and life cycle costs. The pistol has an overall length of 6.6" (186.4mm)with a barrellength of 4.1" (104mm), and with a trigger pull weighing 5.5-7.0 lbs. (2.5-3.175 kg), and a weight without the magazine of 22.9 ounces(650 g). The MASADA will be available in four colors: Sniper Gray, OD Green, Black, and Flat Dark Earth.

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/def...pistol_at_defense_security_2017_thailand.html
     

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