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Israel develops capabilities, India pays the bill

Discussion in 'Indian Defence Industry' started by Averageamerican, Apr 24, 2017.

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  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Israel develops capabilities, India pays the bill

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    India's first Phalcon AWACS was delivered by Israel on 25th May 2009. Here it touches down on Indian soil for the first time, at Jamnagar Air Base.


    by Ajai Shukla
    Business Standard, 9th Feb 09

    For many Indian commentators, especially those on the right, Israel provides an inspiring example of how to deal with external threat. One could equally argue that notwithstanding its comfortable position as the regional hegemon, Israel and its citizens remain insecure, xenophobic and afflicted by a disturbing sense of victimhood. It’s a debate that continues, especially in that country.

    What Israel unquestionably does illustrate for India --- with this country paying hundreds of millions of dollars annually for the lesson --- is a well-considered plan for building their defence industry. In becoming India’s biggest defence supplier, Israel has bared a hard-nosed strategy that our policymakers must grasp and emulate.

    Since Israel does not market aircraft or ships, its defence companies have focused on the lucrative market for upgrading India’s predominantly Russian weaponry, including MiG-21 fighters; ship-borne missiles; and T-72 tanks. Their first step was to understand Russian technology, for which Israeli defence companies accepted initial contracts at cost price to build their engineers’ capabilities. With that experience gained --- at India’s cost, one must note --- Israeli systems designers progressively graduated up the complexity scale. Today, Israel’s defence industry, with capabilities honed across a generation of Russian platforms, can bid across the globe.

    The opportunities for Israel are vast. Some 30,000 T-72 tanks are in service worldwide, including 2500 in India. But Israel, not India or Russia, will feed off that upgrade market. India provided Israel with the tanks, the opportunity and the money for creating that capability. Ironically, the MoD ignored India’s own defence industry; its undeniable competence could have been as easily translated into capability.

    Israeli industry garnered another windfall from its offer to build the Phalcon Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS). This airborne radar mounted on a Russian IL-76 aircraft, allows airborne controllers to monitor and control airspace for hundreds of kilometres around. No Israeli company had ever designed such an AWACS before, but India handed over US $1.1 billion (Rs 5000 crores) to Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Elta. Hundreds of Israeli designers learned on the job, building AWACS capability on Indian money. Israel will now build another three AWACS for India, several for the Israeli Air Force and export more to Chile and Singapore.

    Another feeding trough is the ongoing upgrade of Indian Navy ships, especially the technologically challenging system for “net-centric operations”. This digitally interlinks the fleet’s sensors and weapons --- in the air, on the surface and underwater --- into seamless information and command networks. The two Israeli companies bidding for this strategic contract, Rafael Advanced Defence Systems and IAI, began building capabilities while fitting Indian warships with the Barak missile early this decade. With detailed knowledge of the warships’ Russian combat management system, Israeli engineers are now ready to design the net-centric operations system, the crucial nerve centre in war.

    In this, as in other upgrade contracts, India’s MoD has ignored the advantages of building indigenous capability. Precision Electronics Ltd, a Delhi-based company that engineers high-tech defence electronics, joined hands with US giant, Raytheon, to bid cheaper than Rafael and IAI. It seemed as if, at last, Indian capabilities would also be built. But, mysteriously, the MoD scrapped that tender last month. There is no way to verify the industry buzz that the Israelis contrived that cancellation; the only thing known for sure is that Rafael and IAI are being investigated by the CBI for corruption in the Barak sale. But it would be safe to bet that, when fresh bidding is ordered, the Israelis will come in with cheaper prices.

    The Israeli strategy is: a financial loss is acceptable, to curb Indian defence industrial capability. Each time an Indian company develops capability in a strategically vital domain, foreign companies will be shut out from that realm forever.

    Strangling the competition at birth is business, not criminal activity. Israel can be expected to do that. What defies logic, though, is the MoD’s dogged refusal to nurture Indian R&D the way it has Israel’s. This is of a piece with the MoD’s approach to Russia during that country’s troubled 1990s. With Russia’s economy bankrupt and military design bureaus and manufacturing units in dire straits, India placed a string of equipment orders --- Sukhoi-30MKI fighters; Talwar class frigates; and T-90 tanks, amongst others --- providing life support to that dying establishment. China, in contrast, simply bought over a bevy of top Russian design engineers, paying them to live in China and build capabilities within China’s defence industries.

    Ashok Kanodia, the MD of Precision Electronics, admires and envies the Israeli companies. Admitting that his own strategy involves bidding at cost price, Kanodia explains, “My gain will be the engineering capability and experience that is created, with the MoD paying the bill. Monetary profits are for later.” But he ruefully admits that, with the MoD apparently unconcerned with developing Indian capabilities, Israeli firms are now unstoppable.

    The MoD, it would appear, has failed to understand that the essence of defence indigenisation is about building domestic design capability. All that South Block seems to have is an oft-repeated target: moving from 70% reliance on foreign equipment to 70% supply from Indian companies. But how exactly this will be done, the MoD has never pronounced. Since a target cannot substitute for a strategy, it is time that South Block implements a clear policy that would allow Indian companies --- especially in the private sector --- to build their capabilities with some assurance of business. That might be the best thing that Israel has done for India.
     
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  2. ReddyMan

    ReddyMan FULL MEMBER

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    Actually US develops the capabilities . . .

    Then Israel gets them for free as "aid" and then resells them. Biggest loser by far here is USA.

    Israeli lobbies control Washington.
     
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    No one controls Washington, its been out of control for long time. Doubt if Israel is going to do much that we don't want them too. India is touchy about doing business with USA but willing to with Israel, but its all the same.

    http://www.globalissues.org/article/74/the-arms-trade-is-big-business
     
  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    POLITICS: Unchecked Arms Trade Fuelling Conflict, Poverty
    By IPS Correspondents Reprint | | [​IMG] Print | Send by email
    Ida Karlsson

    UNITED NATIONS, Oct 9 2008 (IPS) - With 1.3 trillion dollars spent every year on the world's militaries, countries enmeshed in conflict are often flooded by weapons which are then turned against helpless civilian populations, say human rights organisations pushing for an international treaty to closely regulate arms sales.

    "If a country is likely to be involved in warfare, then it is unjustifiable to sell arms. There must be regulation or control of arms – especially when the countries that are buying them are involved in a conflict," Valentino Deng told IPS in an interview.

    Deng's experiences formed the basis of Dave Eggers's recent novel "What is the What", which fictionalises the story of his life as a refugee of the Sudanese civil war. When Deng's village was attacked and burnt down, he was separated from his family and fled on foot with a group of other young boys. On the journey to a refugee camp in Kenya, they encountered great danger and terrible hardships.

    "I saw people being killed by aerial bombings and I saw villages burnt to ashes," he told IPS. "I witnessed one of the incidents when a mother was killed and her young child was trying to breastfeed on the dead mother. At that time, I was wondering about one thing: who was supplying all these arms for war and conflict?"

    The U.N. peacekeeping force's former commander in the Democratic Republic of Congo, General Patrick Cammaert, saw firsthand the futility of disarmament without controlling the supply of arms at the same time. "You had the feeling," he said last year, "that you were mopping up the floor when the tap was open. One moment you disarm a group, and then a week later the same group has fresh arms and ammunition."

    A new report by Oxfam International reveals how irresponsible arms transfers undermine many developing countries' chances of achieveing their development goals. Either these transfers are draining the governments' resources or fuelling armed conflict, or both.



    The international arms trade is also considered to be one of the three most corrupt businesses in the world, according to Transparency International, the leading global organisation monitoring corruption.


    "What is clear is that if you want to achieve the development goals, with poverty reduction, improved health care and education, you need to control arms transfers, " said Katherine Nightingale, author of the Oxfam report.

    At least 22 of the 34 countries least likely to achieve the U.N.'s Millennium Development Goals are in the midst of, or emerging from conflict, according to U.N. statistics. Oxfam notes that between 1990 and 2005, 23 African countries together lost an estimated 284 billion dollars as a result of armed conflicts, fuelled by transfers of ammunition and arms – 95 percent of which came from outside Africa.

    An investigative report by Amnesty International last month found that clandestine gun suppliers, funded by the U.S. and Iraqi governments, have flooded Iraq with a million weapons since 2003.

    Because of faulty or non-existent government tracking systems, many of those guns have gone missing, and some have turned up in the hands of insurgents, Amnesty said.

    According to the Oxfam report, a comprehensive and effective international arms trade treaty must be agreed to ensure more responsibility and transparency. Existing international initiatives like the Geneva Declaration to address armed violence are simply insufficient, it says.

    "In parts of Africa there are strong regional agreements. But this is not enough. Arms trade is a global industry. We want a global arms trade treaty to ensure that states are hold accountable for the processes of procuring arms. International regulations are far behind in this aspect, " Nightingale told IPS.

    Worldwide support for a global Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) was reflected when 153 states voted in favour during the United Nations General Assembly in December 2006. And later this month, U.N. member states will meet again to consider further steps to move towards negotiations on an ATT.

    In the run-up to these discussions, a few states, including China, India, Egypt, Pakistan, Russia and the United States, have been attempting to block, delay and water down proposals, advocates say. This could kill the treaty before real negotiations even begin and allow continued unchecked trade in arms, human rights organisations fear.

    Amnesty International, Oxfam, and others are now calling for the General Assembly to start a negotiating process during 2009 so that the international community can benefit from a legally-binding and universal Arms Trade Treaty by the end of 2010.
     
  5. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    USA has become the world's only super power by doing similar trade. Don't you give citizenship and other incentives to people with outstanding brains? We have gone a step further, We are paying them to create a knowledge base for our own people.
     
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  6. A_poster

    A_poster Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Jewish lobby does control Washington. Not that we are complaining, but it is for all to see.

    USA is touchy to do business with India and attach limitation on use of equipment that it sell to India, while Israel does not. That's why India prefer buying equipment from Israel.
     
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  7. ReddyMan

    ReddyMan FULL MEMBER

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    $38 BILLION aid package says otherwise. Now why would US do this if it wasn't for powerful lobbies such as AIPAC?

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/09/14/united-states-military-aid-israel/90358564/

    Now the primary criticism from influential US Congress members is that they are NOT giving enough money to Israel , poor Israel needs a lot more than $38 Billion :cray:. This is where Israel gets its capabilities from, their magical 'R&D' is just a myth paid for by US taxpayers such as yourself. When India pays Israel for some of its stuff, it is getting touched up US inventions and capabilities that were originally paid for by US taxpayers.
     
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  8. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    That's 3.8 billon a year over ten years and mainly in weapons, not cash. Israel is a powerful US ally in the middle east, we have immense stock piles of weapons in Israel. Besides if the Jews did not have Israel they would all come here then where would Indians go.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The next big game is China vs India. USA is not even an entity in it. US has to decide which side they are going to be. India can take care of China any day. Forget about what happened n 1962. We have no border with China, we share border with Tibet which was and is an independent nation till date. All the agreements signed to demark the border between India and China have been thru Tibet only. You god damn Chinese, go and **** yourself, we do not recognise you as a party at all for border arrangement between Tibet and India..
     
  11. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Its kind of hard to argue that China could possibly defeat the USA but would not stand a chance against India.
     
  12. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

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    Well benefits of business equally appreciated by both countries.
    Author of the article is trying to portray the picture that Israelis are favored more than local establishments.

    But one has to look into the technology what India is buying from Israeli defense partners. And then they would understand that it is worth it rather than developing a R&D unit for them as they supply is on time and at require moment. And half the systems brought from Israelis are already having equivalent or local production lines where has been worked for decades and not fruitful yet. And India did the best it can do to not waste time in such critical weapons systems. Understandable.

    And if US wants it could block the Israelis defense exports to India. But that was the unsaid agreement between US and India to get those weapons systems from Israelis. And it strengthen the Israelis and in turn India gets a good weapons system. And Jews lobbies back was broken during Obama period and it is not going to come up anytime sooner to be a deciding factor for foreign policy for US.

    And India is playing the card smart. And it should be that way.
     
  13. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Three Additional F-35s Landed in Israel
    About four months after the integration of the first two aircraft, three additional “Adir” (F-35I) fighters landed in Nevatim AFB

    IsraelDefense | 24/04/2017 [​IMG]

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    Photography: Celia Garion / IAF website

    Three additional "Adir" (F-35I) stealth fighters landed in Nevatim AFB on Sunday and joined the two other jets, which arrived in December 2016. "The integration of the additional three jets is another stage in building the IAF’s capability, as a shield of the State of Israel," said Brig. Gen. Eyal Grinboim, Nevatim AFB Commander.

    The "Adir" (F-35I) is an advanced fifth-generation multirole stealth fighter. Its advanced capabilities make it a first-rate strategic asset for the IAF, the IDF and all of Israel. "As a young squadron taking its first steps in the operation of the ‘Adir,' this is a significant change," said Lt. Col. Yotam, Commander of the "Golden Eagle" Squadron.

    The first two "Adir" (F-35I) jets landed in Israel in December of 2016, and in the four months that have passed, the "Golden Eagle" Squadron has clocked dozens of flight hours on the advanced fighters. In this four-month period, the squadron focused on training flights and flights intended to test the jet’s capability. Maj. Yuval, a test pilot of the "Adir," explained that when the acquisition deal was signed, the manufacturers said, as they did to all other buyers, that they recommend we test the aircraft. "As the aircraft is a final product, we do not test it in order to change it, but in order to examine and acquaint ourselves with its capabilities."

    The arrival of the three new jets brings the "Golden Eagle" Squadron a step closer to the goal it set: initial operational capability by the end of 2017, only a year after the first fighters landed in Israel. The arrival of the three "Adir" fighters to Nevatim has significantly expanded the squadron, but it is far from the end. The IAF is expected to receive additional F-35 fighters throughout 2017, and in total, the Israeli Government has agreed upon the procurement of about 50 F-35I aircraft.
     
  14. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Israel takes defense seriously and they are no ones fools.
     
  15. A_poster

    A_poster Captain FULL MEMBER

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    USA could beat brakes off China, if it commits. It is just that Americans are not warriors, just bullies, and only war against those who could not defend themselves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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