Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

IVC may pre-date Egypt's pharoahs: Ancient society is 2,500 years older than thought

Discussion in 'General History' started by Tejasmk3, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. Tejasmk3

    Tejasmk3 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    611
    Country Flag:
    India

    IVC may pre-date Egypt's pharoahs: Ancient society is 2,500 years older than thought


    With its impressive pyramids and complex rules, Ancient Egypt may seem to many the epitome of an advanced early civilisation.

    But new evidence suggests the Indus Valley Civilisation in India and Pakistan, famed for its well-planned cities and impressive crafts, predates Egypt and Mesopotamia.

    Already considered one of the oldest civilisations in the world, experts now believe it is 8,000 years old - 2,500 years older than previously thought.

    [​IMG]
    With its impressive pyramids and complex rules Ancient Egypt may seem to many the epitome of an advanced early civilisation. However, new evidence suggests the Indus Valley Civilisation in India and Pakistan, famed for its well-planned cities and impressive crafts, predates Egypt and Mesopotamia

    Their study also sheds new light on why the seemingly flourishing civilisation collapsed.

    A team of researchers from the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), Institute of Archaeology, Deccan College Pune, and IIT Kharagpur, have analysed pottery fragments and animal bones from the Bhirrana in the north of the country using carbon dating methods.

    ‘Based on radiocarbon ages from different trenches and levels the settlement at Bhirrana has been inferred to be the oldest (>9 ka BP) in the Indian sub-continent,’ the experts wrote in Nature’s Scientific Reports journal.

    They used also used ‘optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) method’ to check the dating and investigate whether the climate changed when the civilisation was thriving, to fill ‘a critical gap in information … [about] the Harappan [Indus Valley] civilisation.’

    While more tests are required, the study suggests the Indus Valley Civilisation pre-dates those of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, which are also famed for their impressive ability to build organised cities.

    It’s thought the civilisation spread across parts of what is now Pakistan and northwest India in the Bronze Age and at its peak, some five million people lived in one million square miles along citadels built near the basins of the Indus River.

    [​IMG]
    A team of researchers from the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), Institute of Archaeology, Deccan College Pune, and IIT Kharagpur, have analysed pottery fragments and animal bones from the Bhirrana in the north of the country using carbon dating methods.

    [​IMG]

    ‘Based on radiocarbon ages from different trenches and levels the settlement at Bhirrana has been inferred to be the oldest (>9 ka BP) in the Indian sub-continent,’ the experts wrote in Nature’s Scientific Reports journal

    [​IMG]
    Indian caretaker Hirabhai Makwana inspects the ancient bricks at the drainage site in the ancient town of Lothal. While more tests are required, the study suggests the Indus Valley Civilisation pre-dates those of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, which are also famed for their impressive ability to build organised cities

    Pottery and metals discovered at various ancient sites in the region indicate the people were skilled craftsmen and metallurgists, able to work copper, bronze, lead and tin, as well as bake bricks and control the supply and drainage of water.

    Anindya Sarkar, a professor at the department of geology and geophysics at IIT Kharagpur, told International Business Times: ‘Our study pushes back the antiquity to as old as 8th millennium before present and will have major implications to the evolution of human settlements in Indian sub-continent.’

    The archaeological sites at Harappa and Mohenjo-daro in Pakistan, show the ancient people were adept town planners and farmers.

    Discovered in the 1920s, the Unesco site of Mohenjo-daro is one of the largest and most advanced settlements of the Indus Valley Civilisation, with streets arranged round rectangular brick houses, two large assembly halls, a market place, public baths and a central well.

    Individual households got their water from smaller wells and waste water was channelled into main streets, with some more lavish properties boasting their own bath and a second storey.

    [​IMG]

    It’s thought the civilisation spread across parts of what is now Pakistan and northwest India in the Bronze Age and at its peak, some five million people lived in one million square miles along citadels built near the basins of the Indus River

    [​IMG]
    Indian caretaker Hirabhai Makwana inspects the ancient bricks at the Acropolis site. Experts have previously suggested the seemingly successful and advanced civilisation was gradually wiped out when the Indus River dried up as the result of climate change

    Experts have previously suggested the seemingly successful and advanced civilisation was gradually wiped out when the Indus River dried up as the result of climate change.

    There are many other theories too, including an Aryan invasion, catastrophic floods, changing sea levels, societal violence and the spread of infectious diseases.

    But the team has come up with a new theory.

    ‘Our study suggests that the climate was probably not the cause of Harappan decline,’ they wrote.

    While the ancient people relied upon heavy and regular monsoons between 9,000 and 7,000 years ago to water their crops, after this period, evidence at Bhirrana shows people continued to survive despite changing weather patterns.

    ‘Increasing evidences suggest that these people shifted their crop patterns from the large-grained cereals like wheat and barley during the early part of intensified monsoon to drought-resistant species of small millets and rice in the later part of declining monsoon and thereby changed their subsistence strategy,’ they continued.

    However, changing the crops they grew and harvested resulted in the ‘de-urbanisation’ of cities and no need for large food storage facilities. Instead, the people swapped to personal storage spaces to look after their families.

    ‘Because these later crops generally have much lower yield, the organised large storage system of mature Harappan period was abandoned giving rise to smaller more individual household based crop processing and storage system and could act as catalyst for the de-urbanisation of the Harappan civilization rather than an abrupt collapse,’ the team wrote.

    [​IMG]
    Indian caretaker Hirabhai Makwana cleans the ancient furnace


    No one yet knows why such a great civilisation disappeared.

    One theory, which emerged in 2012, is that climate change led to the collapse of the ancient Indus civiliSation more than 4,000 years ago.

    A study also resolves a long-standing debate over the source and fate of the Sarasvati, the sacred river of Hindu mythology, the authors believe.

    Over five years an international team combined satellite photos and topographic data to make digital maps of landforms constructed by the Indus and neighbouring rivers.

    They then probed in the field by drilling, coring, and even manually-dug trenches and samples were tested.

    Co-author Dorian Fuller, an archaeologist with University College London, said: 'Once we had this new information on the geological history, we could re-examine what we know about settlements

    'This brought new insights into the process of eastward population shift, the change towards many more small farming communities, and the decline of cities during late Harappan times.'

    The study suggests the decline in monsoon rains led to weakened river dynamics, and played a critical role both in the development and the collapse of the Indus culture.

    [​IMG]
    No one yet knows why such a great civilisation disappeared. Pictured are the remains of the Granaries of Harappa, Pakistan
     
    dray, Levina and BlackOpsIndia like this.
  2. dadeechi

    dadeechi Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    680
    Country Flag:
    India
    Scientific astronomical dating confirmed that Mahabharatha took place 5500 BC.

    IVC was destroyed by the nuclear weapons used during the war.
     
    Levina likes this.
  3. Naagraj

    Naagraj 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2016
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    133
    Country Flag:
    India
    Ivc. may also predates 4 billion years ie. time of formation of earth.
    Kutch bhi likh do, magar koi proof dene ki jarurat nahi hai.
     
  4. vsdoc

    vsdoc 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    306
    I believe that the Indus Valley people were slaughtered by successive waves of the breakaway fraction of Aryans from central Asia/Asia minor. Developing mirror antagonistic Avestan and Vedic civilizations. The arm that moved north by northwest to populate Europe (the least genetically changed remnants now in some Scandinavian countries) moved a millennium or so later. Those Harappans who survived, fled into the forests of the Indian mainland. First east and from there south. 5 million 5000 years ago must have been a huge number. Purely organically, it would have grown to near Indian size today.
     
    Lion of Rajputana likes this.
  5. vsdoc

    vsdoc 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    306
    Anyone who actually buys into the ANI ASI maayajaal is clearly deluded.

    One only has to look at us to realise that all Indians are clearly not of a single race.
     
    Lion of Rajputana likes this.
  6. Domain

    Domain Developers Guild Staff Member IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    149
    Country Flag:
    India
    The details of this lies in the Rig Veda. The oldest organized scripture recognized.
    People should try to look at the Rig Veda without any religious angle and study the Astronomical evidence to understand the time-frame. Some opinions put the Rig Veda within 8000 BC - 6000 BC as per the data. This makes a clear understanding of the so-called IVC.

    Another theory about the IVC is that its a misnomer and the real civilization was based on the mythological Saraswati river. An analysis on this showed post the ice age meltdown the river systems were structured with both the ancient Ganga( Jhannavi ) and Indus flowed into the Saraswati. Tectonic shifts caused the eastern and western systems of Indus Basin and Ganga Basin later on causing the Saraswati to dry by 2600 BC ( As evident in Mahabharatha ) and cause the migration of the civilization to eastern and western sites.
    The sites of so called IVC have different time-lines due to this and does not depict a single phenomenon.

    In the entire Rig Veda , Northern India is always described from East to West and not from west to east , unlike the now debunked Aryan Invasion theory framed by Europeans to paint them in better light. East , West , North and Central India were occupied at same times by various factions of population who emerged from a single common point , you can call it Arya , or whatever but each small pocket differed in their ideology and following over the years giving rise of ideological fights.

    Similar development can be traces to all the SUN worshiping civilizations around the world over this entire period of 8000 BC to 1500 BC.

    That there were fighting factions with ideological differences of Aryas within current India is not new and well described with the fight between LIGHT and DARK
    ( which is actually right vs wrong , Ying and Yang to draw a parallel ). This Light and Dark as usual by our superior European races got interpreted as White and Black Skin ( They cant look beyond Skin /Eyes and Hair anyways ).

    The modern Indian is an amalgamation of centuries of development , natural selection and integration.

    Why Egypt draws so much attention from the West is obvious , science , adventure, arts or anything don't interest them more than Vitamin-M does.
     
    Levina likes this.
  7. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    Its not Indus valley but Saraswati Valley civilisation and this new dating corresponds to what is written in Rig Veda. And Rig Veda was written on the banks of River Saraswati.
     
    dray and Levina like this.
  8. vsdoc

    vsdoc 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    306
    The Europeans have no dog in the fight one way or the other cause they are a degree more removed from the Aryans than the Indic bloodlines are.

    So to suggest that the Aryan Invasion Theory was a white supremacist thing is ironically laughable.

    And as far as I can see, nothing about the Aryan Invasion Theory comes out of the true home of the Aryans.

    Modern day Iran. E'ran.

    Cheers, Athrva'n Doc
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  9. Domain

    Domain Developers Guild Staff Member IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    149
    Country Flag:
    India
    So who were/are there " Aryans " you think ?
    I am sure Muller or Wheeler did not base their theory to honor the subcontinent " blacks ".
    That the Aryan Invasion Theory was a white supremacist theory has been strongly and successfully debated.

    Most of the postulated theories have been based on the fact that ARYANS were outsiders and tried looking at "ARYANS" outside India. which itself is a fundamental mistake.
    Modern day IRAN has evidence in their historical scriptures of powerful and knowledgeable Indo people living since centuries to their east. and from whom they gain their common ancestry.

     
    Levina likes this.
  10. vsdoc

    vsdoc 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    306
    That there was common ancestry (with the Indo Aryans) there is no doubt.

    There are too many similarities between ancient rites, chants, the veneration of fire, linguistic similarities between Avestan and Sanskrit, for there not to have been an ancient ancestral link.

    Simply put they were ancient cousins who fought. Then one group left home on a frump and killed a whole bunch of people in a new land across the mountains and set camp there. Then ptoceeded to dig in and spread. And evolved a spiritual philosophy (already present in germ form when the split happened) diametrically at odds with and vilifying those they fought with and left behind.

    So Ahura becomes Asura. And eventually they interbreed with the locals and develop a system of bloodline based castes. From north to south, east to west.

    And both sides are well aware of one another but for millennia do not wage war against one another. Until the desert lizards come. Do you not find that strange? Two huge civilizations, zero conflict?

    It's as if there was an unspoken hands off pact. And rigid rules about the preservation of ancient bloodlines.

    So for the Indics, the other became the Mlecchas.

    And for the original arm, those that went over (and mixed blood) became the De'hras.

    The weight of world intellectual evidence points about the movement west to east.

    The east to west "theory" emanates from one interested (and hence biased) region.

    It has little to do with science and more with rebound revisionist sociocultural politics.

    It is a theory that is not taken seriously anywhere outside the cozy coterie where it was spawned and will eventually pass away. Hopefully peacefully. In its sleep.

    Remember one thing. And that should poke an aircraft carrier sized hole in this west movement theory. There is NO record of an earlier people in E'ran. Not one.

    Such is not the case for India. Hence the ANI ASI acrobatics.

    Cheers, Doc
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  11. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    In the history of mankind, whenever migration og population has taken place, they have carried the names of rivers, cities, villages with them to new areas. There is no such link of Vedic people with Central Asia or Europe. Early Sanskrit had a very large usage of words belonging to Tamil language which was called Prakrit and from that emerged Sanskrit. Number system which is Vedic travelled from India to Arabs to Venice along the trade routes. How is that possible if we had Aryans coming to India and overtaking this culture? This whole theory of Aryan invasion is a hoax created by Europeans to show their dominance over Indians.
     
    Domain and Levina like this.
  12. vsdoc

    vsdoc 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    306
    Once more. Very very few Europeans (Scandinavian, and some Germanic lines) are actually Aryan.

    Why would they seek to push that which they are not.

    Secondly, modern day Iran is not wholly Persian. Just a bit over 60%. They have other races there now both from conquest as well as parts of the once vast Persian empire, from a large swathe of once Zoroastrian lands (most of the modern day jans and tans of central Asia).
    But there is no anthropological record of an earlier native people who were pushed out as they pushed in.

    Such is not the case with India. India was not always part of Asia. The Himalayas are the youngest peaks in the world.

    There would have to have been some really nifty human racial evolution for the spectrum of anthropology we see in India north to south to have been living together and have come out of a single land mass.

    Cheers, Doc
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
    Lion of Rajputana likes this.
  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    Indo-Gangetic people had a territory spanning up to Caspian sea. And these people went further north and west to settle down in Europe and Russia/Latvia etc. You will find a remarkable similarity in words and cultures of these countries with Sanskrit. Just the way a river dries up when it travels from its source if there are no more catchments in its path, same happens with languages. Sanskrit of Rig Veda and of other vedas has been enriched by words acquired from other languages of India. There are very few words which have come from other languages which are not native to India. But as you move away from India, you find that those languages have acquired words from Sanskrit. This shows an outward emigration of people from Ind0-Gangetic belt and not vice versa as AIT says.
     
  14. vsdoc

    vsdoc 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    306
    Or that Sanskrit and it's progenitors came to India and did not birth here.

    You do realize that 5-10000 years is a drop in the ocean in terms of genetics.

    Which is the reason you still have mainland India so anthropolically diverse.

    Bloodlines, castes, gotras, the whole shebang, engineered to preserve the same.

    Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are so into bloodlines for a very very specific reason. Intermingling and mixing is not seen as a good thing.

    Cheers, Doc
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India

Share This Page