J-10A/B Vanguard.

Discussion in 'China' started by Tailchopper, Jan 4, 2011.

  1. Martian
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    Martian Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Chinese J-10A armed with PL-12 missile is far superior to French Rafale armed with MICA missile

    [​IMG]
    PL-12 / SD-10A on display at Datangshan in 2010 (Zhenguan Studio, © 2010, Air Power Australia).

    [​IMG]
    A MICA EM missile (top) and MICA IR (bottom), displayed at Farnborough in 1998 (Duncan Lennox)

    1. The Chinese PL-12 air-to-air missile has higher potential energy in combat. The Chinese J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m. The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further.

    2. The Chinese PL-12 missile has higher kinetic energy in combat. A missile fired from a Mach 2.2 J-10A will fly much further than a missile fired from a much slower Mach 1.8 Rafale. The J-10A has a faster "maximum speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude" than the significantly slower "Mach 1.8+" for the French Rafale.

    3. The Chinese PL-12 missile is significantly larger in size and can carry more rocket propellant. More rocket fuel means greater range.

    Chinese PL-12 missile has a volume of 3.7m x pi x (0.1m^2) = 0.116 cubic meters

    French MICA missile has a volume of 3.1m x pi x (0.08m^2) = 0.062 cubic meters

    In conclusion, the Chinese PL-12 has almost twice the volume of the much smaller French Rafale missile.
    _________________________________________________________________________________

    PL-12 | GlobalSecurity

    "The missile is thought to correspond to the PL-12 designation, which is also associated with the SD-10 designation, possibly for export purposes. Like the basic R-77, Project 129 appears to have a body diameter of 200 mm., with a length of around 3.7 meters (12.1 ft.)."
    -----

    Mica RF - Deagel

    "Mica RF
    IOC: 1996
    Also Known As: Mica EM
    Origin: France
    Contractor/s: MBDA

    Dimensions

    Diameter: 160 millimeter
    Length: 3.10 meter"
    ----------

    China's J-10A Vigorous Dragon is superior to French Rafale

    [​IMG]
    China's J-10A flies higher, faster, and carry longer-range PL-12 AAM (air-to-air missile) than French Rafale.

    [​IMG]
    The J-10A carries four PL-12 missiles with 70+ km range that can easily shoot down a French Rafale carrying shorter 50km range MICA missiles.

    The J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m. The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further.

    For within-visual-range (WVR) combat, a J-10A can circle above and swoop down with guns blazing on a helpless French Rafale. On the other hand, a French Rafale cannot engage a high-flying J-10A at 18,000m (which is 1,200m beyond the French Rafale's service ceiling).

    The J-10A can carry four PL-12 beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles with 70+ km range. However, the MICA missile carried by the French Rafale has a much shorter 50km range (according to GlobalSecurity).

    There is an alternative citation for a higher 100km range for the PL-12 (see International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > The Air Balance on the Taiwan Strait).

    The J-10A has a faster "maximum speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude" than the significantly slower "Mach 1.8+" for the French Rafale. This means the J-10A can fire its four PL-12 missiles at a French Rafale at 60km and fly home safely. The French Rafale's slower speed means it cannot chase down a J-10A.

    The final point is the deadliness of China's PL-12 missiles.

    Advanced but Unproved Chinese BVR Medium Range Missile SD-10

    "Its seven recent test firings all hit the targets.
    ...
    Experts believe that domestic SD-10's performance has surpassed the U.S. AIM-120A/B, Russian R-77 and the French MICA (Missile d'Interception et de Combat Aerien), etc., and close to the AIM-120C."

    [Note: PL-12/SD-10 refers to the same missile.]

    ----------

    References (for Wikipedia articles, see primary source footnotes):

    Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Mica | GlobalSecurity
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  2. MiG-23MLD
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    MiG-23MLD Major STRATEGIST

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    no intelligence at its best Rafale has meteors

    The Meteor missile will be used in conjunction with the Thales RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, which has been fitted to all production Rafales delivered since mid-2013, according to Dassault. In the air defense and superiority roles, the radar will allow Rafale pilots to fire the Meteor “at extreme ranges.” French Rafales employed the Sagem AASM during operations in Libya in 2011 “to destroy targets at ranges of several tens of kilometers with metric precision. The laser homing version is particularly adapted to moving targets,” Dassault said.Thales Develops ?New Generation? Laser Designation Pod | Aviation International News


    France to invest 1 bln euro on aircraft upgrade
    Friday, 10 January 2014
    France planned to invest 1 billion euro (1.364 billion U.S. dollars) in a bid to upgrade the Rafale combat aircraft enough to snatch deals and cope with a fierce competition, Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said Friday.
    "It is a clear sign of our commitment to invest in the Rafale... to have better international level. It is also a guarantee to offer for a long term products that meet the requirements of export," the minister said.
    Rafale modernization plan consisted in integrating the new long-range missile Meteor and new generation of laser designation pod "PDL NG".
    http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/24489/1/

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. MiG-23MLD
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    MiG-23MLD Major STRATEGIST

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    Canards are, as mentioned, of close-coupled configuration. This has benefits on aircraft performance in both subsonic and supersonic flight when compared to conventional delta wing or wing/tail configuration. One of reasons is that canard produces vortices which are very strong immediately behind canard itself, and get progressively weaker. This leads to a nose-up tendency, resulting in aerodynamically unstable aircraft (center of lift is forward of center of mass), which also means quicker instanteneous turn due to pitch-up moment. Further, vortices created by canard root, aside from improving wing lift during maneuvers by themselves, interact with vortices created by LERX (LERX itself creates vortices from both root and wing junction, helping both body and wing lift; vortices from canard tip energize outer parts of wings and do not interact with any other set of vortices but help with avoiding wing tip stall and improve response to aeliron inputs); this interaction between LERX and canard root vortices results in vortices being strengthened, prividing large increase in Clmax and decrease in angle of attack for Clmax, by lowering effective angle of attack of the wing. This in turn could have resulted in less lift at very low angles of attack, but vertical separation between canard and wing ensures that it does not become an issue (also a reason for Gripen’s angled canards). It does stabilize detached vortex of the main wing, thus providing greater vortex lift and which results in increase in lift at higher angles of attack; vortex lift also starts sooner for close-coupled canard configuration than for pure delta (and since canard does not interact with the wing, long-arm canard configuration can be considered “pure” delta for purposes of this explanation). Result is that Rafale does not need to achieve as high angle of attack for Clmax as pure delta would have, thus reducing induced drag from which delta-wing aircraft suffer at high angles of attack; it also achieves more lift at Clmax, by up to 50%. Wing center of pressure also moves aft with increasing Mach number due to canard delaying stall over outboard wing panels, and there is reduction in subsonic-supersonic aerodynamic center shift which means that aircraft remains unstable even when supersonic, thus improving maneuvering performance. All of these effects are stronger for canard positioned above the wing than one positioned at same level as wing; movable canard is also better lift-enhancing device than fixed canard or LERX. LERX vortices, aside from helping wing lift, also increase body lift when maneuvering, made possible by large degree of wing-body blending present. Another benefit is reduction in wing bending moment and structural weight due to shift of aerodynamic load distribution inboard.


    Dassault Rafale analysis | Defense Issues

    J-10 lacks obviously LERXes and fuselage wing blending plus it has lower TWR

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. MiG-23MLD
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    MiG-23MLD Major STRATEGIST

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  5. Zeus_@21
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    Zeus_@21 Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    In the modern era, most of the combat jets are at par with each other. The thing that will give an upper edge to the pilot, is his own skills as a fighter pilot and quality of avionics.
     
  6. Antonius
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    Antonius Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Current J-10A brings PL-12, while current Rafale doesnt bring Meteor. So Martian has point when saying J-10A has edge over Rafale due to its PL-12 superiority.

    Meteor is BVRAAM, you should compare it with PL-13, not PL12. So if the future Rafale will have Meteor then likewise the future J-10 will have PL-13.
     
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  7. Picard
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    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Skill was always a dominant factor, even when fighters weren't at par with each other.
     
  8. MiG-23MLD
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    MiG-23MLD Major STRATEGIST

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    J-10A has this radar [​IMG]
    Further releases will be performed as France moves towards making the first controlled and boosted launch of a Meteor from the Rafale during 2015. The new-generation air dominance missile is due to become operational with the French air force and navy from 2018, with Paris having already ordered a first batch of 200 weapons.

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/rafale-to-expand-meteor-missile-testing-385943/
    [​IMG]
    And Rafale started receiving this

    [​IMG]

    BAE Systems plans to conduct two firing of the MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles during 2014 as part of the multinational effort to bring the weapon into service on the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft.

    The firings, dubbed F1 and F2, will take place on the UK Ministry of Defence's Hebrides missile range in the northwest of Scotland, Andy Pegg, BAE Systems' Typhoon Flight Test Manager, told IHS Jane's on 11 February.http://www.janes.com/article/34447/typhoon-meteor-firing-trials-to-ramp-up-in-2014
     
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  9. Antonius
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    Antonius Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Is the Rafale with AESA already in operation? I believe most Rafale in operation still has no AESA yet.

    So the future Rafale (2015) will face J-10C with PL-13.
     
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  10. MiG-23MLD
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    MiG-23MLD Major STRATEGIST

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    The French Air Force's Rafale fighter aircraft has successfully test fired the Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) at the French defence procurement agency's (DGA) Flight Test Center in Cazaux, south-western France.
    Known as the B301, the aircraft underwent two successful test firings of the new-generation missile on the 4th and 10th October 2012 respectively.
    A total of 200 Meteor missiles were ordered by the DGA from MBDA UK under an undisclosed deal in January 2011, for integration into French Rafale fighters to help enhance air-to-air and air-to-surface attack capabilities.French Air Force's Rafale completes Meteor missile test firing - Airforce Technology

     
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  11. MiG-23MLD
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    MiG-23MLD Major STRATEGIST

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    Show me the video of PL-13 doing the same
     
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  12. Antonius
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    Antonius Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    LOL. You cant expect the same from China as she is playing low profile.

    Many of Chinese weapon/fighter was thought to be only rumours from fanboys until it release. J-10 is a good example on about how world know the existence since china announce officially in 2005, that they already operate it in 1998, 7 years behind.
     
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  13. MiG-23MLD
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    MiG-23MLD Major STRATEGIST

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    You are just simply trolling, this Chinese video, shows you the state of the J-10A, at minute 3:18 to 3:54 the guy says J-10A can not compete with F-16C/D in radar technology, so tell me why it will compete with a F-2 or a Rafale?


    This is Chinese TV, consider the state of the art of J-10B is not yet fulfiled, showing you that you are just trolling like your twin brother Martian, the French Rafale is a very good aircraft, so much that western analysts won`t consider the J-10A too much of a threat, see that even versus MiG-29 it lost in the export market, like you said you are just a fan boy and you are basically trolling
     
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  14. G777
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    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    China will be quite interesting in the future. Their military will advance a lot faster than others in a shorter time. If I recall they have also started testing long range kinetic weapons:

    U.S. Navy Sees Chinese HGV As Part Of Wider Threat

    So many militarys are out of date, I did all this testing on my computer years ago. lol
     
  15. Antonius
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    Antonius Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Sorry I dont watch that youtube.

    But LOL. Nobody said J-10A radar is better than that of Rafale or F-2.

    Yes Rafale is a very good aircraft, in term of maneuverability, ECM, and radar. But I dont think so in term of LO especially frontal aspect.
     
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