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J-10A/B Vanguard.

Discussion in 'China & Asia Pacific' started by Tailchopper, Jan 4, 2011.

  1. Martian

    Martian Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Meteor won't be in service until 2017

    I compared current weapon capabilities.

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    Rafale looks to the future - Air&Cosmos

    "Rafale looks to the future - Air&Cosmos

    Jan 23, 2014 - According to Howyan, Meteor integration could be complete by mid-2017. French Rafales will be able to carry two Meteors, on the rear lateral ..."

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    Chinese J-10A armed with PL-12 missile is far superior to French Rafale armed with MICA missile

    [​IMG]
    PL-12 / SD-10A on display at Datangshan in 2010 (Zhenguan Studio, © 2010, Air Power Australia).

    [​IMG]
    A MICA EM missile (top) and MICA IR (bottom), displayed at Farnborough in 1998 (Duncan Lennox)

    1. The Chinese PL-12 air-to-air missile has higher potential energy in combat. The Chinese J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m. The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further.

    2. The Chinese PL-12 missile has higher kinetic energy in combat. A missile fired from a Mach 2.2 J-10A will fly much further than a missile fired from a much slower Mach 1.8 Rafale. The J-10A has a faster "maximum speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude" than the significantly slower "Mach 1.8+" for the French Rafale.

    3. The Chinese PL-12 missile is significantly larger in size and can carry more rocket propellant. More rocket fuel means greater range.

    Chinese PL-12 missile has a volume of 3.7m x pi x (0.1m^2) = 0.116 cubic meters

    French MICA missile has a volume of 3.1m x pi x (0.08m^2) = 0.062 cubic meters

    In conclusion, the Chinese PL-12 has almost twice the volume of the much smaller French Rafale missile.
    _________________________________________________________________________________

    PL-12 | GlobalSecurity

    "The missile is thought to correspond to the PL-12 designation, which is also associated with the SD-10 designation, possibly for export purposes. Like the basic R-77, Project 129 appears to have a body diameter of 200 mm., with a length of around 3.7 meters (12.1 ft.)."
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    Mica RF - Deagel

    "Mica RF
    IOC: 1996
    Also Known As: Mica EM
    Origin: France
    Contractor/s: MBDA

    Dimensions

    Diameter: 160 millimeter
    Length: 3.10 meter"
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    China's J-10A Vigorous Dragon is superior to French Rafale

    [​IMG]
    China's J-10A flies higher, faster, and carry longer-range PL-12 AAM (air-to-air missile) than French Rafale.

    [​IMG]
    The J-10A carries four PL-12 missiles with 70+ km range that can easily shoot down a French Rafale carrying shorter 50km range MICA missiles.

    The J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m. The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further.

    For within-visual-range (WVR) combat, a J-10A can circle above and swoop down with guns blazing on a helpless French Rafale. On the other hand, a French Rafale cannot engage a high-flying J-10A at 18,000m (which is 1,200m beyond the French Rafale's service ceiling).

    The J-10A can carry four PL-12 beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles with 70+ km range. However, the MICA missile carried by the French Rafale has a much shorter 50km range (according to GlobalSecurity).

    There is an alternative citation for a higher 100km range for the PL-12 (see International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > The Air Balance on the Taiwan Strait).

    The J-10A has a faster "maximum speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude" than the significantly slower "Mach 1.8+" for the French Rafale. This means the J-10A can fire its four PL-12 missiles at a French Rafale at 60km and fly home safely. The French Rafale's slower speed means it cannot chase down a J-10A.

    The final point is the deadliness of China's PL-12 missiles.

    Advanced but Unproved Chinese BVR Medium Range Missile SD-10

    "Its seven recent test firings all hit the targets.
    ...
    Experts believe that domestic SD-10's performance has surpassed the U.S. AIM-120A/B, Russian R-77 and the French MICA (Missile d'Interception et de Combat Aerien), etc., and close to the AIM-120C."

    [Note: PL-12/SD-10 refers to the same missile.]

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    References (for Wikipedia articles, see primary source footnotes):

    Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Mica | GlobalSecurity
     
  2. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Rafale is stealthier than F-16 from the front. What makes J-10A stealthier than any operational version of F-16 from front?
     
  3. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    [MENTION=71]Martian[/MENTION]

    What is the detection range of J-10A radar?
     
  4. Antonius

    Antonius Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Rafale is not stealthier than F-16. What make u think Rafale is stealthier than F-16?
     
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  5. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Do you remember the chart of RCS values you posted some time ago.

    Globalsecurity.org
     
  6. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    The KLJ-3 multimode radar. The KLJ-3 is said to be based on the AN/APG-66/88 series. It’s said to have a maximum detection range of 81 miles and an engagement range of 56 miles. It can also track 4 to 6 targets simultaneously and engage 2 targets at one time.2013 | The Lexicans | Page 2

    Source: http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/china/3257-j-10a-b-vanguard-13.html#ixzz2udYjIJOp
     
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  7. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Thanks! However it doesn't tell what RCS is to be detected at 81 miles (~130km).

    Oh and by the way, RBE-2 can track 40 targets and engage 8 simultaneously.
     
  8. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Obviosly Martian knows Physics since Rafale supercruises the Mica gets longer range and the no scape zone is reduced, voila J-10 is a subsonic fighter, it flies most of its mission at Mach 0.8, it uses afterburner it reduces range, who will give better range? a fighter supercruising and with IRST or a fighter that lacks IRST and lacks the IR range of MIca IR?


    Figure 164: A Shot Fired Around the World. Imagine standing on a tall mountain rising above the atmosphere. You fire a bullet horizontally. If its speed is just right, and very fast, it will “fall” at the same rate the spherical Earth curves away. The bullet would be launched in a circular orbit (blue) around Earth. In other words, the bullet would “fall” around the Earth continually. Isaac Newton first suggested this surprising possibility in 1687. It wasn’t until 1957 that the former Soviet Union demonstrated this with a satellite called Sputnik I.

    If the bullet were launched more slowly, it would eventually hit the Earth. If the bullet traveled faster, it would be in an oval or elliptical orbit (red).20 With even more speed, the orbit would not “loop around” and close on itself. It would be an “open” orbit; the bullet would never return. The green orbit, called a parabolic orbit, is the boundary between open and closed orbits. With any greater launch velocity, the bullet would travel in a hyperbolic orbit; with any less, it would be in an elliptical orbit. These orbits will be discussed in more detail later. Understanding them will help us discover how comets came to be.
    http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Comets4.html[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
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  9. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    The chinese general said the radar is inferior to the Taiwanese F-16C/D, calculate that Rafale has IRST and supercruises, throw a stone standing and throw a stone moving let us see which ones gets farther? a missile gets lower range if the target is flying faster, try to hit a flying bird with a stone and a car standing still which one is easier
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
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  10. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    MICA hitting a target at 67 km in ROCAF service :

    ROCAF Dassault Mirage 2000-5Di/Ei

    This was done from a Mirage-2000 version back in 1998. Ofcourse MICA is a lot more improved now.
     
  11. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    If we're talking about the missiles, Rafale need not even turn on it's radar to fire the MICA-IR. Rafale has
    IRST for searching and passive ranging capability & interferometry-based radar warning techniques etc.

    Rafale is capable of killing J-10A without even alerting it.

    PL-12 on the other hand is a radar-guided missile and if it's to be effective at it's maximum range, J-10A
    has no option but to turn on it's radar which will only give away it's position to Rafale even before actually
    seeing Rafale on radar and being able to lock it(J-10A radar is not even LPI).
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Interferometery is overrated.

    When "they" say RWR is good enough for missile shots, they basically put all the pressure on the missile to perform, not the onboard sensor. The chances of failure is extremely high since the target is dynamic and accuracy is low. With radar, the difference is much larger.

    Don't read too much into the advertisements of RWR effectiveness. The difference is much too far.

    IRST is a better bet, but it comes with weather limitations. The mountains will always have effed up weather.

    Both are just detection tools. The final judgement is made by the radar, even for Rafale.

    But J-10A is nowhere near a match for Rafale. Not without an equivalent or better AESA on it.
     
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  13. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Check out the attacking aircraft. lol.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2014
  14. Antonius

    Antonius Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    OK.

    Back to ur question what make J-10A should be stealthier than F-16 is the same reason with what make Rafale is stealthier than F-16, that is S-Shape Duct that partially hide the Fan Blade (the biggest frontal RCS contributor)
     
  15. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    The flight of a missile to increase range depends on various factors, first, the first Newton law, drag and the ballistics of the angle when it is fired

    Direct fire is accurate at short range and could be targeted on specific individuals. The figure on the right is shooting at an angle of 7 degrees. This is the model used for direct archery.

    The lofted shot is launched at a 45 degree angle to reach the maximum distance. This is depicted in the figure to the left. Lofted fire would not be accurate against individuals but could be used against formations
    http://garyb.0catch.com/skirmishers1/skirmishers.html

    [​IMG]
    To take one example, the Vympel R-77 has a stated range of 100 km against a head-on target at high altitude, but only 25 km in a stern chase. At low altitude it can fire at head-on targets at 20 km, from which we can guess range in a stern chase is 5 km. (See the above diagram.)
    And this is presumably against targets that don't try to evade.
    http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviation/text/missiles/aam.html
    tail on or a head on target will also will be a factor.
    [​IMG]

    INTRODUCTION
    The throwing events in athletics, including the javelin throw, can be said to be
    acyclic movement exercises performed at maximum speed. Because of its
    contribution to release velocity, which is the key to achieving maximum
    throwing
    http://www.coachkrall.com/Articles/Jav/Speed.pdf


    To put it in this way the J-10 has the altitude advantage, but Rafale the speed advantage and the stealth factor, since it can use IR homing and IR tracking.

    The J-10 is faster but it does not super cruise, so if a supersonic dash means no fuel and means a higher amount of fuel carried and burnt, lower TWR also means inferior acceleration specially at high altitude.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
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