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J-10A/B Vanguard.

Discussion in 'China & Asia Pacific' started by Tailchopper, Jan 4, 2011.

  1. Zeus_@21

    Zeus_@21 Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    As people are drawing comparisons between Rafale and J-10 A/B. Here is a precise collection of info based on which one can decide which one holds an upper edge.

    1) Rafale is a twin engined aircraft. Hence, It has got more thrust behind its back than the single engined J-10 A/B.

    2) Hardpoints:-

    Rafale: 14 for Rafale B/C, 13 for Rafale M (Hence, It can carry more armaments)
    J-10 A/B: 11 for both the variants, AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong).

    3) G-limits:

    J-10 A/B: +9/-3 g
    Rafale: +9/-3.2 g

    4) Range/Combat Radius:

    J-10 A: 1,600 km (with air to air refueling), 550 km (without air to air refueling)
    Note: No data found on J-10B's combat radius.
    Rafale: 3,700+ km (Rafale can be used for deep strike missions)

    5) Radar Avionics:

    Rafale: RBE2 / AESA – “Active Electronically Scanned Array” RADAR

    The RAFALE is the first operational – and so far, the only – European combat aircraft to use an electronic scanning radar. Developed by THALES, the RBE2 radar has benefited from a massive research effort and from THALES’ unmatched know-how based on past experience. Compared to radars with conventional antennas, unprecedented levels of situational awareness are attained with earlier detection and tracking of multiple targets.

    With its superior beam agility and its enormous computing power, the RBE2 offers outstanding performance that cannot be replicated by mechanical scanning radars.In October 2012, the first RAFALE fighter equipped with an “Active Electronically Scanned Array” (AESA) RBE2 radar was delivered to the French MoD. The AESA provides a wide range of functions:

    a) All-aspect look-up and look-down detection and tracking of multiple air targets for close combat and long-range interception, in all weather and in severe jamming environments,
    b) Ability to track targets in, or out of the search domain, bringing the ultimate advantage in air combat,
    c) Real time generation of three-dimensional maps for terrain-following above uncharted terrain in blind conditions. The RAFALE is the sole new generation combat aircraft to currently propose such a function,
    d) Real time generation of high resolution 2D ground maps for navigation updates and detection, identification and designation of ground targets,
    f) Detection and tracking of multiple naval targets.

    The RBE2-AESA is fully compatible in terms of detection range with the upcoming long range METEOR air-to-air missile. The AESA offers an unprecedented growth-potential for the future.

    In those situations where discretion becomes the single most important tactical factor, the RAFALE can rely on several other sensor systems:

    2 – “Front Sector Optronics” – FSO

    Developed by THALES, the “Front Sector Optronics” (FSO) system is fully integrated into the aircraft. Operating in the optronic wavelengths, it is immune to radar jamming and it provides covert long-range detection and identification, high resolution angular tracking and laser range-finding for air, sea and ground targets.

    The FSO’s powerful TV sensor (cued by the RAFALE’s active and passive sensors) is truly valuable to positively identify targets in situations where a visual contact is required by the rules of engagement.

    3 – SPECTRA – Internal electronic warfare suite

    Jointly developed by THALES and MBDA, the SPECTRA internal “Electronic Warfare” (EW) system is the cornerstone of the Rafale’s outstanding survivability against the latest airborne and ground threats.

    It is fully integrated with other systems in the aircraft, and it provides a multi-spectral threat warning capability against hostile radars, missiles and lasers.

    The SPECTRA system carries out reliable long-range detection, identification and localisation of threats, allowing the pilot to instantly select the most effective defensive measures based on combinations of radar jamming, infrared or radar decoying and evasive manoeuvres.

    The angular localisation performance of the SPECTRA sensors makes it possible to accurately locate ground threats in order to avoid them, or to target them for destruction with precision guided munitions.

    The outstanding capability of SPECTRA regarding airborne threat localisation, is one of the keys of the RAFALE’s superior situational awareness.

    Also instrumental in SPECTRA‘s performance is a threat library that can be easily defined, integrated and updated on short notice by users in their own country, and in full autonomy.

    SPECTRA now includes a new generation missile warning system that offers increased detection performance against the latest threats.

    4 – NET-CENTRIC CAPABILITY

    The net-centric capability of the RAFALE hinges on its open architecture, its data fusion software and its compatibility with a variety of data links, which “plug” the RAFALE into the integrated battlespace.

    A secure high-rate data link is provided to share data in combined air operations in real time with other aircraft in the formation, airborne and surface command and control centres, tactical air controllers or other friendly assets. The Link 16 data link is also available to those customers cleared to operate it.

    As a net-centric capable asset, the RAFALE can exchange images. The Rover (“Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receiver”) is an element of this capability which allows aircrews and forward air controllers on the ground to share videos or images of the target. It helps prevent blue-on-blue incidents and collateral damage, a decisive advantage in peacekeeping operations.

    The RAFALE’s interoperability, as part of a multinational operation, has been demonstrated on countless occasions, and Link 16 as well as non-NATO solutions can be provided to meet various customers’ requirements.

    5 – DAMOCLES – LASER DESIGNATION POD

    The DAMOCLES laser designator pod designed by THALES, brings full day and night laser designation capability to the RAFALE, with metric precision. It permits laser-guided weapons to be delivered at stand-off range and altitude.

    The IR sensor of the DAMOCLES pod operates in the mid-wave infrared band, allowing it to retain its effectiveness in warm and / or humid conditions

    DAMOCLES is interoperable with all existing laser-guided weapons.

    A contract for a new generation of laser designation / targeting pod was announced in early 2013, with service entry from 2018. This new pod will offer considerably expanded detection and tracking ranges, day and night.

    6 – AREOS – RECCE POD – With real-time transmission

    For both strategic and tactical reconnaissance missions, the French Armed Forces have adopted the new generation THALES AREOS reconnaissance system for the RAFALE.

    As demonstrated in Libya and in Mali, this high-tech, day and night equipment can be used in a wide range of scenarios, from stand-off distance at high altitude down to high speed and extremely low-level.

    To shorten the intelligence gathering cycle and accelerate the tempo of operations, the AREOS pod is fitted with a data link which allows high resolution images to be transmitted back to military decision makers in real time.

    The outstanding performance of AREOS in stand-off reconnaissance makes it a sensor with a true pre-strategic value.





    J-10 A/B: NRIET KLJ-10 multi-mode fire-control radar (for J-10A).


    AESA for J-10B


    For J-10B, the nose cone is modified to accommodate an active phased array airborne radar (AESA) radar. The general designer of AESA for J-10B is Mr. Zhang Kunhui (张昆辉, 1963 -), the head of 607 Research Institute in Neijiang, Sichuan. Mr. Zhang Kunhui became the deputy head of 607th Research Institute in 1997, and four years later in 2001, he became the head of the institute, when the AESA program for J-10B started. The primary contractor of this AESA is the Radar and Electronic Equipment Research Academy of Aviation Industry Corporation of China located in Sichuan, formed in March 2004 by combining the 607th Research Institute and 171st Factory together with Mr. Zhang Kunhui was named as the head of the research academy. According to Chinese governmental media, the AESA for J-10B took 8 years to develop, finally completed in 2008, and Chinese fighter radars hence achieved a quantum leap in that it went from mechanically scanned planar slotted array directly into AESA, skipping the passive phased array PESA radar.

    Electro-Optic Targeting System

    The J-10B has been added with an electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS) commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as Su-27 and MiG-29. Placed forward of the cockpit canopy to the right, the system comprises an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and a laser rangefinder, which can detect enemy targets passively without requiring to turn on the fire-control radar, thus reducing the chance of the aircraft being detected. The EOTS of the J-10B is likely based on a Russian design.

    Tailfin ECM Pod


    The upper edge of J-10B’s tailfin is curved, in contrast to the straight-edged tailfin of the J-10. A large fairing is added to the tip of the tailfin to accommodate electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) equipment.

    6) Weapons:

    J-10 A/B:
    Air-to-air missiles: PL-8, PL-9, PL-11, PL-12(Mach 4,70-100 km range)
    Air-to-surface missiles: PJ-9, YJ-9K

    Rafale: Air-to-air Missiles:

    MBDA MICA IR (Mach 3, max. 80 Km range)
    MBDA Meteor air-to-air missiles in the future(Mach 4+, range - 100km+)

    Air-to-ground:

    MBDA Apache or
    Storm Shadow-SCALP EG or
    AASM-Hammer or
    GBU-12 Paveway II or GBU-49 Enhanced Paveway II
    GBU-24 Paveway III
    AS-30L

    Air-to-surface:

    AM 39-Exocet

    Deterrence:

    ASMP-A nuclear missile


    Source of Information:


    J-10 A/B: Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    J-10B F-10B fighter jet - China - PLAAF - AirForceWorld.com - Last update 30 July 2010 (No official data found for J-10. Hence, I had to rely on Wikipedia and it's citations)

    Rafale: Introduction - Dassault Aviation (Official website of dassault-aviation)
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
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  2. Zeus_@21

    Zeus_@21 Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Airframe:

    J-10 A/B:

    J-10A design

    The structure of the aircraft is based on a tail-less delta (triangular planform) wing, foreplanes and a sweptback vertical tail. There are two fixed, outwardly canted ventral (on the underside of the body) fins near the tail. The size and design of the J-10 are very similar to that of the Israeli Aircraft Industries Lavi fighter aircraft, which itself is similar to and derived technology from the USAF F-16 aircraft.

    The horizontal close-coupled foreplanes (larger than those on the Lavi) on the forward fuselage improve the take-off and low-speed handling characteristics.

    J-10B's Rampless Inlet:

    [​IMG]

    The J-10B features a chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. The traditional rectangle-shape air inlet on the J-10 requires a large moveable inlet ramp to generate a rearward leaning oblique shock wave to aid the inlet compression process. The ramp sits at an acute angle to deflect the intake air stream from the longitudinal direction. The air inlets comprises many moving parts, which increases the aircraft’s weight and radar reflections.

    The newly designed rampless inlet, first tested on the FC-1/JF-17 fighter design by Chengdu, employs a one-piece bump at the top of the inlet replacing the movable ramp. This eliminates all moving parts on the inlet, lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircraft’s radar signature.

    J-10 (Jian 10) Vigorous Dragon Multirole Tactical Fighter - Airforce Technology
    J-10B F-10B fighter jet - China - PLAAF - AirForceWorld.com - Last update 30 July 2010



    Rafale - A fully optimized airframe:


    [​IMG]

    The RAFALE, a fully “OMNIROLE” fighter, is available in three variants:

    the RAFALE C single-seater operated from land bases,
    the RAFALE M single-seater for carrier operations,
    the RAFALE B two-seater flown from land bases.

    All three variants share a common airframe and a common mission system, the differences between naval and land versions being mainly limited to the undercarriage and to the arresting hook.

    1 – Airframe – Materials – Flight Control System

    The RAFALE features a delta wing with close-coupled canards. In-house research in computational fluid dynamics has shown the specific benefits of close coupling between the wings and the canards: it ensures a wide range of centre of gravity positions for all flight conditions, as well as benign handling throughout the whole flight envelope.

    The close-coupled canards / delta wing configuration is key to the combat performance of the rafale: even at high angle-of-attack, it remains fully agile, and its range performance in strike missions with heavy weapon loads is unmatched for such a compact design.

    An advanced digital “Fly-by-Wire” (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) provides for longitudinal stability and superior handling performance. The FCS is quadruple redundant with three digital channels and one separately designed analogue channel, with no mechanical back-up: design independence between channels is key to avoiding simultaneous anomalies on all channels.

    The Flight Control System of the RAFALE attains the highest level of flight safety by leveraging on the extensive experience of DASSAULT AVIATION in Fly-by-Wire technology: one million flight hours without a single accident caused by the FCS.

    The RAFALE is safe and easy to fly in all flight regimes, featuring the same precise, yet benign handling performance in all load-out configurations throughout the flight envelope.

    The flight control system of the RAFALE offers auto flight in terrain following mode in all weather conditions, allowing the RAFALE to fly unobserved in the opponent’s airspace: an important survivability factor in a high threat environment.

    The radar cross section of the airframe has been kept to the lowest possible value by selecting the most adequate outer mould line and materials. Most of the stealth design features are classified, but some of them are clearly visible, such as the serrated patterns on the trailing edge of the wings and canards.

    DASSAULT AVIATION has long been recognised for designing sturdy airframes that sustain over 30 years of operation without heavy structural upgrades.

    Thanks to the DASSAULT AVIATION unique know-how in finite element modelisation, the RAFALE airframe fatigue is monitored with the same gauge-free concept which has proved its worth on the MIRAGE 2000 fleet.

    Composite materials are extensively used in the RAFALE and they account for 70% of the wetted area. They also account for the 40% increase in the max take-off weight to empty weight ratio compared with traditional airframes built of aluminium and titanium.

    A fully optimized airframe - Dassault Aviation

    Wikipedia (with citations) - Although not a full-aspect stealth aircraft, the cost of which was viewed as unacceptably excessive, the Rafale was designed for a reduced radar cross-section (RCS) and infra-red signature. In order to reduce the RCS, changes from the initial technology demonstrator include a reduction in the size of the tail-fin, fuselage reshaping, repositioning of the engine air inlets underneath the aircraft's wing, and the extensive use of composite materials and serrated patterns for the construction of the trailing edges of the wings and canards. Many of the features designed to reduce the Rafale's visibility to threats remain classified.

    That's all for today!! :smile:
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
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  3. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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  7. sunny

    sunny 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    If check the "wikipedia" in Chinese and in English, will find the difference, in English will list the lowest data in English source,
    http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/歼-10

    2) Hardpoints:-

    Rafale: 14 for Rafale B/C, 13 for Rafale M (Hence, It can carry more armaments)
    J-10 A/B: 11 for both the variants, and can use composite pylons to add points.
    figure on :
    http://wenda.china.com/data/html/000/24/18/8.html
    3) G-limits:

    J-10 A/B: +9/-3 g
    Rafale: +9/-3.2 g

    4) Range/Combat Radius:

    J-10 A: range: 3,900 km (with 3 drop tank), 2,700 km (without drop tank)
    Combat Radius:1,250km (without drop tank)
    Note: No data found on J-10B's combat radius.
    Rafale: Range: max 3,700+ km
    Combat Radius: 1,852km on penetration mission with drop tank

    "
    最大航程


    3,900公里

    (带三个外挂副油箱,无武装);2700千米(基本航程)
    作战半径1,250公里(无副油箱)
    翼负荷270千克/平方米
    推重比1.024(正常起飞重量)
    最大过载+9/-3g[7]
    滑跑距离


    最小起飞滑跑距离(Takeoff distance): 350米(m)

    最小着陆滑跑距离: 400-650米
    "
     
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  8. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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  9. Zeus_@21

    Zeus_@21 Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Well, you can do us a favor by interpreting it in English. As we don't know Chinese.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
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  10. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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  11. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

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    These paper specs often are confusing and not showing realistic operational configs. Four of J10 fuselage stations for example are only useful for light dumb bombs because of size restrictions, but not for any LGB, or AAM. In standard CAP config the J10 can carry only 2 x BVR + 2 WVR missiles, unless draggy twin pylons will be added to add 2 more BVR missiles:

    Chinese J-10 Fighter Jet in Combat Air Patrol (CAP) Configuration | Chinese Military Review

    The Rafale can carry at least 6 x AAMs in the same role without multi pylons and could add even 2 more MICAs if the external wingstations are opened. So a clear advantage, compared to what the basic figures shows.
    In A2G configs it gets even worse, where the J10 has to use it's heavy stations to use twin pylons for 250Kg LGBs. That means it either can carry 4 x such LGBs with a single small centerline tank to very short ranges, or just 2 LGBs with up to 3 tanks to long ranges. The Rafale can carry 6 x such LGBs with up to 3 x 2000l fuel tanks, which gives it a clear edge in payload, range and endurance in that role.

    As long as the J10 is compromised by the lack of heavy stations or at least CFTs to free them, the plain number of hardpoints doesn't make it very capable as a medium class fighter.
     
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  12. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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