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Kalvari Class Submarines - Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by flanker143, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. flanker143

    flanker143 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    The delivery of the first Scorpene submarine under Project-75 to the Indian Navy has been put off till second half of 2015, Parliament was informed today.In a written reply to the Lok Sabha, Defence Minister A K Antony said, “The first submarine is now scheduled to be delivered in the second half of 2015. There has been delay due to initial teething problems, absorption of complex technology, augmentation of MDL Infrastructure and procurement of purchased material.”
    A programme for construction of six submarine is currently underway at Mazagaon Dock Limited (MDL), Mumbai under Project-75.

    As per the contract, first submarine was scheduled to be delived in December 2012 and thereafter, one each every year till December 2017,” Antony said.

    Informing the House on increase in the project cost, he said, “Government has accorded approval for revision in the cost of Project-75 on account of increase in cost of items purchased by the MDL, related subheads and additional infrastructure.”
    He said that the Defence Procurement Procedure 2011 has envisaged monitoring of all acquisitions to rule out slippages.

    “To ensure that no such slippages occur in future, DPP-2011 envisages close monitoring of acquisitions cases at appropriate level,” Antoy said.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. robert david

    robert david REGISTERED

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    It is amazing that a goof up on this scale has not been accompanied by exemplary punishment like suspension or transfer particularly as it involves dangerously harm on national security.The cool way in which Anthony blames complex technolgy and teething problems (the second time) leads one to recall Churchill's words in describing post independence Indian calibre as "men of straw".Such a thing never happened in the HDW
    submarine manufacture at this very same MDL,and neither did it happen in Pakistan,Peru,and other places where this very same DCN manufacturers of the Scorpene subs has transferred technology for local manufacture.
    A proper investigation by the Parlamentary Standing Committee on Defence will most probably reveal (to take a hypothetical situation) how an experienced and knowledgeable person was sidelined due to politics.He would naturally have taken the PERT/CPM chart with him and his successors, inept at project management would have been taking up module after module at random without reference to the Critical Path leading to such debacles.Unless a proper investigation is done we may be seeing more such delays.Such blunders would never have happened if private sector shipyards like L&T had been entrusted with the job as they are used to handling complex projects on time.The best part is that Mr Anthony wants three of the next six subs to be manufactured here at MDL itself effectively killing off private sector interest in National Defence. Is this only favouritism or is it something deeper.
     
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  3. Lock786

    Lock786 FULL MEMBER

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    As of now Pakistan enjoys full supremacy in the submarine warfare with the Agosta-90B, and with the joint Chinese-Pak submarines yet to be built!!

    Good to see Scorpenes being delayed.
     
  4. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    I can understand the bbold part but the rest is a lot of bull
     
  5. Lock786

    Lock786 FULL MEMBER

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    Go check what the MESMA AIP system is. :lol:
     
  6. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Though India does lack in the submarine department, we are in no way incapable of taking on the Agostas.
    Where PN is planning to add 6 submarines in the coming decade, and that too, an average submarine, IN is going to add 16 submarines in the coming decade (3 Arihant + 1 Akula + 6 Scorpene + 6 Project 75I), and almost all of them are going to be high end submarines, project 75I to be the most expensive submarines in the world (4 times more expensive than U212)
     
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  7. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Indian anti submarine warfare will be boosted by the industion of P8I Poseidon with very long range and sophisticated technology which includes apart from coneventional techniques the magnetic anomaly in oceans to a depth upto 400 metres in all weather day an night. P3C Orion in PN doesnot have this technology.

    Thus even with MESMA the agostas are going to get detected and will be hunted down. Same applies to PLAAN. Thats the reason India is going for 8 P8Is in its inventory.
     
  8. flanker143

    flanker143 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    what more one cud expect from a person like u.....
    any waz there are some reports that that the last 3 of the scorpenes will have an aip system....
     
  9. Wolf 9

    Wolf 9 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Submarine Proliferation

    Sweden Current Capabilities
    Capabilities | Import | Export


    The Royal Swedish Navy's submarine flotilla consists of five submarines based at Muskö. The Swedish Navy was the first to operate vessels using an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system based on the Stirling engine. Three Gotland-class units are equipped with AIP, an additional two Västergötland-class vessels have been retrofitted with the system and renamed Södermanland-class.
    [1] Plans to develop a new submarine type, the Viking, were terminated after Denmark and Norway withdrew from the development program. However, Sweden's Defense Materiel Administration (FMV) has been tasked with initiating the preliminary planning for an even more modern submarine, currently designated the A26 class, for the future. The design phase is scheduled to begin in 2007.
    [2] Kockums is participating in developing the new vessel. Kockums Vice President of Communications Kjell Göthe has said that the company is seeking foreign partners to share the development costs and is in discussions with three potential partner countries.
    [11] According to the A26 concept, the submarine will be based on a modular design to make possible the rapid reformatting of the vessel for varying tasks. Given Sweden's small fleet, it is critical that such operations can be accomplished in a minimal amount of time. The A26 will include a large bow section from which unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) can be launched, can be used to transport special forces, and can be used for reconnaissance, mine detection, mine laying, and underwater mapping, as well as warfighting. Like Sweden's current fleet, the A26 will be equipped with Stirling AIP. However, it would have enhanced stealth technology, better sensors, and would not be as dependent on port facilities. Kockums is investigating several ways to improve communications with onshore command without giving up the submarine's position, including the possible use of UUVs for communications purposes or new antennas on the submarine.
    [3]Inside Muskö military port
    Source: "Muskö örlogshamn," National Fortifications Administration Website, Fortifikationsverket - Startsida.
    Sweden's submarines are considered an important defense asset. The submarine force's area of operation has recently been expanded from its original task of countering the threat of Soviet invasion in the Baltic Sea region. Sweden's submarines have begun to participate in multinational rapid reaction exercises acting in waters that range from the North Sea, the Atlantic, and the Bay of Biscay to the Mediterranean with new tasks focusing on reconnaissance, intelligence gathering, and surveillance.[1] The Viking next-generation submarines were designed to enhance these capabilities, as they featured increased endurance and interoperability with other naval branches.
    [4] However, with the withdrawal of Denmark and Norway from the Viking program, it is not clear that Sweden will be able to find new partners for the program, or fund the design, construction, and operation of these new boats on its own.

    In May 2005, the Gotland was leased to the U.S. Navy for one year, complete with a Swedish crew. The Gotland will initially be based in San Diego, where the U.S. Navy will practice joint maneuvers with the stealthy AIP-equipped diesel submarine.
    [5] According to the Swedish newspaper Blekinge Läns Tidning, U.S. interest in the Gotland class was aroused during joint naval exercises when the U.S. Navy was unable to track the Swedish submarine.
    [6]The Gotland in San Diego, with USS Ronald Reagan in background.
    Source: The U.S. Navy.
    During its first year in the United States, the Gotland is scheduled to conduct up to 160 training days at sea, supporting strike groups, individual ships and rescue submarines, as well as participate in testing and development of new equipment.
    [7] The Gotland regularly uses its diesel engines only when entering or exiting port, going on two-week-plus "silent" patrols using its Stirling AIP engines exclusively.
    [8] As of March 2006, the U.S. Navy was reportedly in talks with Sweden on extending the lease for one to two more years.[8,10] Reportedly, during a Joint Task Force Exercise on December 6-16, 2005, with the USS Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Group off the coast of Southern California, the Gotland managed to take several pictures of the Ronald Reagan from close quarters, indicating a "strike" on the aircraft carrier.
    [9] As Gotland's Lieutenant Commander Jan Westas says, the U.S. ASW forces "have had a very difficult time finding us."
    [8] To date, the exercises have been carried out in deep water. It is expected that exercises with the Gotland in coastal waters will prove even more challenging to U.S. ASW.[8]

    Gotland (A 19)
    Displacement, metric tons: 1,494 surfaced
    1,599 submerged
    Dimensions, ft (m): 193.2×20.3×18.4
    (60.4×6.2×5.6)
    Main machinery: hybrid diesel-electric/Stirling AIP
    Speed, knots: 10 surfaced
    20 submerged
    Complement: 27 (including 5 officers)
    Diving depth, ft (m): unknown
    Endurance: unknown
    Weapons: 12 21" (533 mm) and six 15.75" (400 mm) torpedoes; four 21" and two 15.75" tubes; 12 mines in lieu of torpedoes


    Sources:
    "Gotland (A 19) class (SSK)," Submarines Sweden, Jane's Fighting Ships online edition, Jane's Fighting Ships, April 4, 2003.
    "Gotland class," Försvarsmakten (Swedish Navy Website), Startsida - Försvarsmakten.

    Västergötland (Södermanland) (A 17)
    Displacement, metric tons: 1,070 surfaced
    1,143 submerged (1,500 with AIP)
    Dimensions, ft (m): 159.1-198.5×20×18.4
    (48.5-60.5×6.1×5.6)
    Main machinery: diesel-electric, latter two units have been retrofitted with Stirling AIP
    Speed, knots: 10 surfaced
    20 submerged
    Complement: 27 (including 5 officers)
    Diving depth, ft (m): 984 (300)
    Endurance: unknown
    Weapons: 12 21" (533 mm) and six 15.75" (400 mm) torpedoes; four 21" and two 15.75" tubes; 12 mines in lieu of torpedoes


    Sources:
    "Västergötland (A 17) class (SSK)," Submarines Sweden, Jane's Fighting Ships online edition, jfs.janes.com, April 4, 2003.
    "Photostock," Kockums Website, No website configured at this address ...
    "The Södermanland class submarine," Kockums Website, No website configured at this address ...

    ACTIVE DUTY SUBMARINES
    Name Class Base Builder Laid down Launched Commissioned
    Gotland Gotland Muskö Kockums, Malmö 1992 1995 1996
    Uppland Gotland Muskö Kockums, Malmö 1994 1996 1997
    Halland Gotland Muskö Kockums, Malmö 1994 1996 1997
    Södermanland Västergötland/
    Södermanland Muskö Kockums, Malmö 1985 1988 1989
    Östergötland Västergötland/
    Södermanland Muskö Kockums, Malmö 1985 1988 1990

    Sources:
    [1] "Gotland (A 19) class (SSK)," Submarines Sweden, Jane's Fighting Ships online edition, Jane's Fighting Ships.
    [2] "Västergötland (A 17) class (SSK)," Submarines Sweden, Jane's Fighting Ships online edition, Jane's Fighting Ships.

    Sources:
    [1] Bo Rask, "The Swedish submarine force in the future," Naval Forces, Vol. 24, No. 3 (2003), pp. 85; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company, http://proquest.umi.com.
    [2] "Submarine Development," FMV Annual Report 2005, Swedish Defence Materiel Administration Website, Försvarets materielverk - På svenska.
    [3] Magnus Forsberg, "Ledningsplattform med tentakler," Protec, No. 1, 2006, Swedish Defence Materiel Administration Website, Försvarets materielverk - På svenska.
    [4] Interview with the Director General of the Swedish Defense Materiel Administration, Brigitta Bohlin, by Wolfgang Legien, "Quality provider for the Swedish Navy," Naval Forces, Vol. 24, No. 1 (2003), pp. 75-78; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company, http://proquest.umi.com.
    [5] "RSwN submarine HMS Gotland on lease to US Navy for twelve months," May 31, 2005, Kockums Website, Kockums - Välkommen till Kockums.
    [6] "USA to lease Gotland-class sub," November 5, 2004, Kockums Website, Kockums - Välkommen till Kockums.
    [7] "Swedish Submarine Continues to Play Important Role in Joint Training," December 20, 2005, Navy Newsstand Website, The U.S. Navy.
    [8]Norman Polmar, "Back to the Future," United States Naval Institute Proceedings (Annapolis: March 2006), pp. 20-26; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company, http://proquest.umi.com.
    [9] "Svensk Ubåt 'sänkte' USA:s hangarfartyg," Allehanda, January 16, 2006, Start - allehanda.se.
    [10] "USA vill fortsätta jaga svensk ubåt," Svenska Dagbladet, April 18, 2006, SvD | Sveriges kvalitetssajt för nyheter.
    [11] "Kockums utvecklar ny ubåt åt försvaret," NyTeknik Website, June 1, 2005.



    This material is produced independently for NTI by the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies at the Monterey Institute of International Studies and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of and has not been independently verified by NTI or its directors, officers, employees, or agents. Copyright © 2011 by MIIS.

    *****

    In this article they says that Sweden is looking for partner for next Subs development . Good news for India than.
     
  10. Osiris

    Osiris Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Navy to train for Scorpene subs

    NEW DELHI: Two Indian naval crews will be going to France to train for operating the Scorpene killer submarines , six of which are being built at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai under the Rs 23,562 crore programme called Project-75 .

    "The Indian crews will begin the training with the French navy after some months. We now hope to get the first Scorpene by August 2015. Each submarine will have just a 36-member crew since automation levels in them are very high," said an official. With India down to just 14 submarines now, the Navy is keen that the Scorpene project, which has been hit by a huge cost escalation and is running three years behind schedule, does not suffer any more slippages.

    Both MDL as well as French collaborator DCNS, however, are confident that Project-75 is now fully on track. "The first Scorpene will be 'launched' into water in 2013, and will be ready for commissioning by August 2015 after extensive harbour and sea trials," said a top DCNS official.

    "The target is to deliver the sixth submarine by 2018, one every nine months after the first one in 2015. The third and fourth submarines are already under construction at MDL," the official added.

    Navy, on its part, is keeping its fingers crossed about the Scorpene project as well as its new programme called "Project-75 India'' . The government of course is yet to finalize P-75 I, under which six new stealth submarines equipped with both tubelaunched missiles for landattack capabilities as well as AIP (air-independent propulsion ) are to be built with foreign collaboration for over Rs 50,000 crore.

    Projections show the force will have only five of its existing 10 Russian Kiloclass and four German HDW submarines by 2020. Consequently , even with the six Scorpenes, India will be far short of the at least 18 conventional submarines required to deter Pakistan and China, both of which are rapidly augmenting their underwater combat arms.

    Navy to train for Scorpene subs - The Times of India
     
  11. @speaks

    @speaks Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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  12. Capt.Popeye

    Capt.Popeye Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    The Agostas are a dated design growing steadily obsolescent; and notwithstanding the upgrades a rapidly diminishing asset.
    About the Chinese subs, they are not exactly "cutting edge"; but they are cheap.
    Sorry to burst your bubble! :wink:
     
  13. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    any link to project 75 i?
     
  14. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Dcns testing atm new lithium/polymer batteries, are they included in indian scorpene project?
     
  15. MAFIAN GOD

    MAFIAN GOD Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Go and check P-75I, Arihant Nuclear Submarines, scorpene submarines, Akula class nuclear subamarines, P-8I..........
     

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