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Kalvari Class Submarines - Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by flanker143, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    "Sir they are stealth won't be visible until we make them visible" :mrgreen:
     
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  2. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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  3. jonas

    jonas Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    French supplier faltering, deadlines breached; Scorpene may take another hit says defence shipyard
    Jugal R Purohit New Delhi, August 30, 2014 | UPDATED 10:55 IST

    The alarm bells have gone off. After nine long years of waiting, the Indian Navy couldn't have expected a worse time for it to happen.
    [​IMG]
    Jaitley during his visit to the MDL in Mumbai,earlier this week.

    Suffering from two debilitating underwater losses within a year and tardy acquisition process, its only hope, Project 75 involving the construction of six Scorpene submarines based on transfer of technology from the French firm DCNS, is on the verge of taking a hit, resulting into the fourth straight extension of delivery deadline.

    The Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), which is building the boats with DCNS' assistance, has stated that critical spares which were to be supplied by DCNS are yet to materialise despite the deadlines expiring. What makes the crisis worse is the fact that these spares impact the first boat in all sections and thereby the lack of availability is expected to hit progress in construction. The present delivery schedule was worked out in November 2012 and orders were placed accordingly. This schedule stipulated that the first submarine would get commissioned into the navy by September 2016 and the remaining five at intervals of nine months after that. It is this schedule which now stands breached.

    Meanwhile, the MDL has completed the construction of the six hulls for the six boats and has made headway into outfitting work on the first.

    Rear Admiral (retd) Rahul Shrawat, Chairman and Managing Director, MDL said, "Earlier too this project was delayed on account of Mazagon Procurement Material (MPM) not being procured on time. Fresh MPM was ordered following a review. Of that, while some parts have come, some have not despite their delivery deadlines expiring. I am being forced to absorb delays and on many occasions I am undoing work I have done because parts come in later on". He added that the Ministry of Defence had been briefed over this and the 'pressure from all sides' was being applied on DCNS to deliver. "Even if it comes through today, I can deliver the boat on time," he mentioned. When asked if a revised timeline will have to worked out, following the delay, his response was, "I can't comment till the material actually comes to me."

    It was informed that the first of the Scorpene boats was ready to be 'launched' in September next year. A year of trials after that, involving all systems including weapon firing, she should be ready for commissioning into the navy i.e in September 2016. "Work is going on 24 by 7 at the yard and we are highly motivated. My fingers are crossed," he added.

    Defence Minister Arun Jaitley had visited the yard earlier this week and when asked did not comment on the development. However, top sources said they were aware of the matter and were 'pushing it'.

    Despite sending email to DCNS, Paris, seeking answers to this delay, there was no response. It was informed that senior officials were 'travelling'.

    Navy's response

    It may be recalled that Project 75 submarine construction project is a very important project for the country and Indian Navy. 06 state-of-the-art submarines fitted with latest equipment are being built at MDL, Mumbai under collaboration with M/s DCNS France, giving a massive boost to the indigenous submarine construction capability of the country. With all the impediments & material hurdles resolved, the construction of the submarines is progressing on schedule to meet the planned delivery schedule of Sep 2016.

    Expert Opinion - R. Adm (Retd) Raja Menon

    Iwould blame the MoD more than the yard, the yard has bore the brunt of MoD's indecision

    Poor decision-making has impacted the submarine project earlier too. Scorpene submarines are very eagerly awaited in the navy and they do represent the latest in technology that will take us ahead of Pakistan and give superiority in the Indian Ocean vis a vis the Chinese.

    Construction of subs not the only problem

    While the submarine building is mired in delays, it does not represent the only problem facing the project.

    The navy, which is favourably seeking the Black Shark torpedo, is yet to finalise contract for supplying of torpedoes. The cause behind was the shadow of the VVIP helicopter scam. The Black Shark is manufactured by WASS, a company of the Finmeccanica group, dealings with which were under an unofficial freeze. Only earlier this week the MoD has issued a notification in this regard and a final call is yet to be taken.

    The navy is keen to also fit the fifth and sixth Scorpene with Air independent Propulsion (AIP) system, which helps the boat to remain underwater for longer periods. However with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) being tasked with the job, the navy remains unsure. Sources in the DRDO, when contacted, said, "It is extremely high end technology and challenging too. We are on the job and hope to meet the deadline set by the navy."
     
  4. HMS Astute

    HMS Astute BANNED BANNED

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    India should get it's own SSNs.
     
  5. Anish

    Anish BANNED BANNED

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  6. HMS Astute

    HMS Astute BANNED BANNED

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    That's SSBN. Do you even know the difference? :facepalm:
     
  7. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Yes 6 SSNs have been outlined for procurement. They are likely to be a downsized version of Arihant.
     
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  8. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I still don't know which torpedo will be onboard the Indian scorpenes. What's the range of the Exocet it will be firing?
     
  9. HMS Astute

    HMS Astute BANNED BANNED

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    70–180 km.
     
  10. HMS Astute

    HMS Astute BANNED BANNED

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    They are midget subs. India should build something comparable to Virginia or Astute class.
     
  11. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    A 5,000-ton vessel a midget ? That would also make the Trafalgar a midget.

    By design, Virginia & Astute combine the traits of attack submarines & cruise missile submarines. But Indian Navy wants it
    differently, there will be between 9 and 18 pure SSNs (5,000 t), 6 of which have so far been outlined, 3 dedicated SSBNs
    with 12-24 silos (20,000 t), and the 3 Arihant-class subs (6,000 t surfaced, maybe ~7,500 t submerged) will, after induction of the definitive SSBNs, be converted to SSGNs carrying BrahMos & Nirbhay cruise missiles & torpedos.
     
  12. HMS Astute

    HMS Astute BANNED BANNED

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    Indeed. Trafalgar class subs are ageing midgets with inadequate capability, that's why all of them are now gradually being replaced by the new generation of larger subs like Astute class with more fire power, more advanced sensors, sonar, better radar and other classified technology. The size of current Vanguard class is around 16,000 tonnes, but had heard that the next generation of SSBNs currently under development will be larger than that. French made subs are generally small, though. I can't complain.

    I understand with the fact that different navies have different interests and requirements. But, it is quite terrifying to be in India's position due to other rising powers in the region especially the aggressive approach of Chinese armed forces. I guess Indian SSBNs are always at sea and patrol the globe 24/7 for guaranteed nuclear deterrent?
     
  13. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    When you say "midget sub", you mean to refer to a submarine of small size/displacement. Technology is an entirely different
    thing - newer designs always have better technology than older ones.

    I am talking about the size & displacement. The 5,000-ton SSN will be roughly of the same dimensions of the Trafalgar-class,
    if comparing technology & timeline-wise it should be more compared to DCNS Barracuda-class, although it may not be
    designed to carry cruise missiles.

    The new P-8I, Tu-142M & Il-38SD maritime patrol aircraft and P-28 Kamorta-class ASW corvettes offer adequate anti-submarine
    warfare capabilities for today and foreseeable future. The Kilo-class SSKs are already outfitted with Klub cruise missiles for increased
    anti-ship and land-attack effectiveness, the Type-209 subs will receive Harpoon Block-II soon while Scorpenes get Exocet.

    The Project-75I submarines may even come with the ability to use VLS-launched BrahMos (AShM/LACM). That said, versions
    of BrahMos & Nirbhay capable of being launched from torpedo tubes are being developed.

    And all this, while not including the SSNs also outlined for procurement.

    Yes they will be once fully deployed. Not all across the globe (as our perceived enemies are both neighbors), but certainly all across Indian Ocean to near Antarctica. Their missile armament will be as follows -

    S-2 Arihant-class
    --
    K-15 SLBM : 750km range (development complete); triple-packed in each silo of Arihant (12 missiles in 4 silos).
    K-4 SLBM : 3,500km range (testing, first launch was conducted a few months ago); 1 per silo

    S-5 Avinash*-class
    --
    K-4 Mk-2 SLBM : 4,500km or more range
    K-5 SLBM : Intercontinental missile with between 6,500 and 8,000km range.
    (both in development)

    *unofficial name

    The K-15 and K-4 have been tested from underwater pontoon mimicking the silo of an SSBN, although actual launch
    from Arihant is still about a few months off.

    --

    Also, the numbers of P-8I are likely to be increased to 12-14 or even upto 30 in future (if requirement for MRMR aircraft is also
    met by Neptune).
     
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  14. kaku

    kaku Major Technical Analyst

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    Bro, there is nothing to do with size. Actually, I even dont classify Arihant as SSBN, it even more like multipurpose nuclear submarine, it act like SSBN until a true SSBN launched which have the 12-14 launch tubes that can carry around 12-14 K-5.

    And after that these Arihant class will carry SLCM, maybe 16-20 mix of BrahMos and of Nirbhay.

    Bro, this is first sub. You cant reach to moon with your first rocket which performing its first launch.
     
  15. HMS Astute

    HMS Astute BANNED BANNED

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    Fantastic progress and plans (hate the P-8 though), but i have always wondered how India is able to operate and maintain such a large quantity of active troops, aircraft, tanks, and ships etc with it's small defence budget. Could you explain that? Ta.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014

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