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'Kargil Was a '4-Man Show', Sharif Not Kept Totally in Dark'

Discussion in 'South Asia & SAARC' started by Marqueur, Jan 30, 2013.

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  1. Marqueur

    Marqueur Peaceful Silence ELITE MEMBER

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    The operation by Pakistani soldiers to capture strategic heights in Kargil sector in 1999 was a "four-man show" orchestrated by former army chief Gen Pervez Musharraf though then premier Nawaz Sharif was "not" kept totally in the dark, a retired general has said.

    Lt Gen (retired) Shahid Aziz, who recently created ripples by acknowledging in an article that regular troops were involved in the Kargil operation, said the "misadventure" was a "four-man show" and details were initially hidden from the rest of the military commanders.

    When the operation began in the spring of 1999, it was known only to Musharraf, Chief of General Staff Lt Gen Mohammad Aziz, Force Command Northern Areas chief Lt Gen Javed Hassan and 10 Corps commander Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmad, Aziz told the Dawn newspaper.

    Though former premier Nawaz Sharif has for long claimed that he had no information about the Kargil operation, Aziz said information he had gathered suggested Sharif was not kept "completely in the dark".

    Aziz said he was personally not aware of what information had been shared with Sharif but recalled that another general had told him that Sharif had once asked during an informal discussion: "When are you giving us Kashmir?" This suggested that Sharif was not completely in the dark, Aziz said.

    The former general's remarks are the first time someone from the senior military hierarchy has spoken in detail and with frankness about the Kargil conflict, the report said.

    Aziz said the operation was a "failure" and the actual figure for Pakistani casualties was still not known.

    "It was a failure because we had to hide its objectives and results from our own people and the nation. It had no purpose, no planning and nobody knows even today how many soldiers lost their lives," he said.

    A majority of corps commanders and principal staff officers were kept in the dark and even then Director General of Military Operations Lt Gen Tauqir Zia learnt about the operation after it had begun, said Aziz, who was the head of the analysis wing of the ISI in 1999.

    Musharraf worked on a policy of "need to know" throughout his tenure as army chief and later President, Aziz said.

    Musharraf would issue orders to only those who were required to implement them instead of first consulting corps commanders and other officers.

    "The Pakistan Army did not plan the operation because Gen Musharraf never saw Kargil as a major operation. Only the FCNA was involved in it and perhaps a section of 10 Corps," said Aziz.

    He claimed the operation reflected a "major intelligence failure for India".

    "It was a miscalculated move", he said, adding that "its objectives were not clear and its ramifications were not properly evaluated".

    Aziz said he first discovered that something was up in Kargil when he came across wireless communication intercepts that showed something was making "Indian forces panic".

    He added: "The intercepts worried me as I thought we were not aware of whatever was unsettling the Indians. I deputed two officers to figure out what was happening".

    The next day's intercepts were clear enough for Aziz to realise that the Indians' anxiety stemmed from the fact that someone from Pakistan had captured some areas in Kargil-Drass sector but it was not clear if they were mujahideen or regular troops.

    "I took these intercepts to then ISI Director General Lt Gen Ziauddin Butt and asked what was happening. It was then that Aziz was told by Butt that the army had captured some area in Kargil".

    Aziz said this was not right. "In his opinion, he should have been told about the proposed operation in advance so that he could have provided his analysis in advance," the report said.

    'Kargil Was a '4-Man Show', Sharif Not Kept Totally in Dark' | news.outlookindia.com
     
  2. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Sharif is a liar.

    He knew all about it, though he refused to tag along unless it was a success.
    Poorly thought-out war, and Sharif's actions on the international stage are the reason why we weren't successful.
     
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  3. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    I sort of believe what Najam Sethi says...
     
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  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    AKA "your average politician".
     
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  5. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    here is the truth about pakistani missiles and this proves my points that Pakistan has no workable nuke delivery system with them except for F-16s.Pls read my posts in the CSD thread. I had told you guys that none of their missiles is capable of delivering their HEU bombs as the bombs are too heavy and their missile can best be called diwaliwala rockets. pata nahin chalega kee nahin, chal gaya toh kaheen apnay upar hee nagir jayeh. agar India kee taraf udh bhi gayeh toh yeh pata nahin kee India main girengay ya Bangladesh main ya Nepal main ya phir back to home in china. GIR KAR UDAYGA YAA UDH KAR GIRAYGA KUCH PATA NAHIN. Atleast now these guys know the truth. The best part is that whenever you prove the fault in any Pak equipment, Pak members quickly claim that they are being replaced. India had monitored each and every flight of PAF C-130s which went to N Korea to bring these missiles. We also knew about these failures but kept quite as we used these test launches to justify our own missile program. There is a very big fear that Pak might end up nuking itself in an attempt to nuke India. Pak has still not perfected the triggering machanism for its missile delivery Plutonium nukes. as of now they have only aircraft deliverable nukes and no missile deliverable nuke. I am sure that Pak members will deny it but pls wait for sometime and you will know the truth about them also.
    ISLAMABAD – A retired Pakistani nuclear scientist has claimed that former Pakistani leader Gen. Pervez Musharraf’s 1999 military adventurism in the Kargil region of divided Kashmir failed in part because the North Korea-aided, nuclear-capable Ghauri missiles he wanted to deploy then had a faulty guidance system.

    Speaking on condition of anonymity, the scientist said that during the Kargil crisis of May-July 1999, Musharraf, who was then army chief, “wanted to deploy Ghauri missiles, but air went out of his balloon when the top general in charge of the missile program told him the missile had a faulty guidance system.”

    Over a year earlier, on April 6, 1998, Pakistan had carried out what it described as a successful first test of the intermediate-range ballistic missile, developed by Khan Research Laboratory with North Korean assistance.

    Even Musharraf, who witnessed that Ghauri launch as a local corps commander, had been led to believe it was a success then, according to the nuclear scientist, who until recently had long been closely associated with the country’s nuclear and missile programs.

    The truth, he said, is that the ballistic missile failed to reach its predesignated impact point in Pakistan’s southwestern province of Baluchistan and its debris could not be found — something that would have undermined the missile’s deterrent effect if it were made public.

    Military experts and strategists have pondered why Musharraf, immediately after he became chief of the army staff in October 1998, began planning the ill-fated incursions across the volatile Line of Control in disputed Kashmir, sparking the worst outbreak of fighting since the India-Pakistan war of 1971 even though he knew Pakistan could not prevail in an all-out conventional war with its neighbor.

    During the May-July 1999 conflict, the two sides fought a two-month limited war in Kargil that led to over 1,200 fatalities and added to fears of a nuclear showdown before then-U.S. President Bill Clinton helped broker a ceasefire and Pakistani withdrawal.

    Musharraf’s gamble in Kargil has since been interpreted by many as an effort by Pakistan, aside from gaining a tactical advantage by occupying dominating positions in the Kargil Heights, to test the deterrence value of its nuclear weapons.

    The untold story, according to the scientist, is that Musharraf was unaware of the Ghauri missile’s faulty guidance system even as he oversaw the covert occupation by Pakistan troops and mujahedeen “freedom fighters” of the inhospitable, snowbound outposts in Kargil that the Indian Army had vacated for the winter.

    He said Musharraf only learned the truth in March 1999 from Lt. Gen. Zulfikar Khan, who then commanded the army’s Combat Division.

    Musharraf then ordered another Ghauri test, which took place on April 14, 1999, just three days after India tested its Agni-2 intermediate-range ballistic missile and several weeks before India detected the extent of the Pakistani side’s penetration in Kargil.

    But this test also failed, with the missile overflying its target and falling across the border in the Sistan region of southeastern Iran, the scientist said. It, too, was publicly declared a success, however.

    The scientist’s remarks were corroborated by two other nuclear scientists and another knowledgeable source who confirmed that the two missiles tested in 1998 and 1999 both failed to impact at the predesignated points in Baluchistan.

    While Pakistan claimed the Ghauri missiles were designed and produced indigenously, they were actually Nodong missiles supplied by North Korea and re-engineered in Pakistan to extend their strike range.

    The scientist claimed that after the second test, North Koreans were invited to a meeting at army headquarters in Rawalpindi, where they were confronted with the fault in their technology.

    “The North Koreans started talking left and right but were told to open their eyes and take care of the guidance system in their Nodong missiles,” said the scientist, who was privy to the meeting.

    Musharraf, he said, initially wanted to return the Nodong missiles to North Korea, from which it had imported 40 in knocked down condition in the mid-1990s. But then the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission undertook to replace the guidance with that of the country’s Chinese-aided Shaheen missile, he said.

    Last Nov. 28, the improved version of Ghauri was test-fired and the government — true to form — declared it a success. Soon afterward, however, it was found to have exploded in midair and rained metal debris over parts of Sindh Province.

    Pakistan’s disgraced nuclear scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan, whose laboratory develops nuclear warheads for Pakistan’s missiles, concedes there was a row about the Ghauri’s accuracy.

    But he ridicules the assertion that Musharraf wanted to return them over their faulty guidance system, saying, “What difference does it make if a nuclear-tipped missile falls 1 km left or right of the predetermined impact point?”

    Khan claims Musharraf merely sought to return them because Pakistan had insufficient funds to pay back what it owed for them. The Kargil crisis happened in the wake of six nuclear tests carried out by Pakistan in May 1998, which triggered sanctions against the country and led a drastic fall in foreign exchange reserves. Pakistan suffered a serious military and diplomatic setback after successful Indian military action and intense international pressure forced it to unconditionally pull back behind the Line of Control as part of the U.S.-brokered ceasefire. In his autobiography, published in 2006, Musharraf called it a “myth” that the two sides had come to the brink of nuclear war during the conflict and dismissed as “preposterous” speculation that Pakistan was preparing for a possible nuclear strike on India then. “I can also say with authority that in 1999 our nuclear capability was not yet operational. Merely exploding a bomb does not mean that you are operationally capable of deploying nuclear force in the field and delivering a bomb across the border over a selected target,” he wrote. Critics of Musharraf’s action often refer to the Kargil conflict as a “misadventure,” saying it was badly conceived and executed, while he wrongly assumed the world would sit back idly. Instead of considering the Kargil as a blunder, Musharraf, who has been living in exile since quitting politics in 2008, claims it actually brought the Kashmir issue back into international focus and helped pave the way for a solution. However, tension between the nuclear-armed neighbors, which have fought three wars since partition in 1947, two of them over Kashmir, has remained high since the Kargil conflict.

    North’s missiles tied to Musharraf blunder | News | The Japan Times
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
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  6. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    We were hoping we could use a catapult to fling nukes into India and to detonate on impact.
     
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  7. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Bhai woh bhi karkay dekhlo. It might work.
    Look you have to justify all the spend to your people, we are ok with it. But pls do not get fooled by your own propaganda and believe it to do something really stupid.
     
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  8. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Vstol ji, you know full well why we spend so vastly on our military. I agree with every person here, that we spend too much on our military.
    And often like Kargil and 65 war, Pakistan started these wars.

    But remember, we have been at war many times with you folks, who hare much bigger, better equipped. We've also had 2 superpowers playing war in Afghanistan. sure back in the 50's/60's Pakistan's military budget wasn't justified, but today it is...

    Agar hamari army na hoti, to ab tak Indian army ne Pakistan ko khatam kar dena tha.

    You are a military man, you must have lots of contacts within IN and other Indian armed forces, and I think you've kept up to date with what goes on.

    Do you remember what was going on after India conducted a nuke test in 98?
    The amount of threats Pakistan received. We tested nukes only after our very existence was threatened.
     
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  9. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The best means to thwart all protection systems and to bring a nuclear weapon to its target looks like a donkey that pulls a big wagon of hay.
     
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  10. AccessDenied

    AccessDenied Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    :sarcastic:Border ke iss paar ho ya uss paar; yeh politicians saale ek jaise hi hain.:frust:
     
  11. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Bro, I somehow do not buy this story that India will ever want to finish off Pakistan. Why shud we ever do it. we may do it if the export of terror continues otherwise not. Also pls tell me when has India ever started a war with Pakistan? 1947-48 you invaded a neutral J&K which later joined India as a result of your actions. 1965 was started by you so was 1971 and 1999. If after this also you call India an enemy than what can we say about it. Your doubts wud have been justified had India been the attacker even once in the history of the two nations.
     
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  12. Firemaster

    Firemaster Captain STAR MEMBER

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    [MENTION=6586]Jungibaaz[/MENTION] bhaii hamne kab koi jung shuru ki zo apko aisaa lga
     
  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    After what I posted about Pak missile program, here is the truth about Pak nuke program.
    Understanding Pakistan

    Pakistan’s current stocks, however, stand at about 100-120 kg of weapon-grade plutonium from the Khushab-I production reactor. For its part, Pakistan did not abruptly begin work on plutonium capability in recent years as a reaction to the Indo-US nuclear deal, though many would like to believe it to be the case. The Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission led by Mr. Munir Ahmad Khan had started work on various elements of the plutonium route from the early 1970s as part of its effort to master the complete nuclear fuel cycle. It began work on the 50 MW Khushab-I reactor and heavy water plant in 1986 and completed an indigenous fuel reprocessing plant at New Labs and a nuclear fuel fabrication complex by the early 1980s. However, Pakistan only chose to activate this option once unsafeguarded plutonium was available from Khushab-I after 1998.

    Therefore, once the indigenous design and construction of Khushab-I was completed, it was only logical for Pakistan to expand its existing capacity. Every country with nuclear weapons has preferred plutonium because it has a significantly smaller critical mass with higher yields – euphemistically called more bang for bucks. Plutonium has been the first choice of every country that built nuclear weapons as it takes five times less amount of this material by weight per warhead compared to highly-enriched uranium. This helps in making advanced, compact and miniaturized warheads for ballistic and cruise missiles.

    Plutonium infrastructure also provides tritium as a by-product, which is used as fusion fuel to boost nuclear warheads and build thermonuclear weapons. Given that India has now succeeded in keeping a major part of its fuel cycle and fissile material production capacity outside IAEA safeguards under the Indo-US nuclear deal, Pakistan will only have to maintain the credibility of its minimum deterrent.

    Thus, the country’s deterrent posture is dynamic. It is sensitive to and directly proportional to Indian nuclear weapons development program. Therefore, Pakistan is forced to keep an eye on the Indian numbers to maintain the credibility of its deterrent. This requires maintaining the plutonium option for an operational triad-based deterrent and an assured second strike capability. Needless to say, Pakistan’s nuclear program is the cornerstone of its security and survival and on this there can be no compromise.
    The satellite photographs of the fourth under-construction plutonium production reactor at Khushab have appeared at a time when the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva has reconvened where Pakistan is being accused of blocking the consensus on the FMCT. These reports by the ISIS and Newsweek seem to suggest that Pakistan has significantly increased the production of weapon-grade plutonium and has the fastest growing nuclear arsenal.

    However, a closer examination reveals that each of the three existing heavy water reactors at the Khushab Nuclear Complex have a capacity of 50 MW, with an annual plutonium production rate of 9-12 kg per unit. The fourth reactor is likely to be no different in size. Hence, the combined annual production of all four reactors would not be more than 36-48 kg of plutonium. Interestingly, none of these reports ever acknowledge the fact that India is already working on a 100 MW plutonium production reactor which is similar to its existing Dhruva military reactor. It has also recently commissioned a 100 ton/year capacity fuel reprocessing plant, which is India’s fourth.

    According to the 2006 estimates of the IPFM report on India’s fissile material production, India’s current weapon-grade plutonium stocks from its 40 MW CIRUS and 100 MW Dhruva military reactors stand at 950 kg. In addition, these estimates suggest that India currently possesses around 11.5 tons of weapon-usable reactor-grade plutonium from its unsafeguarded heavy water power reactors. Assuming 5 kg of weapon-grade and 10 kg of reactor-grade plutonium per weapon, these stocks are sufficient for India to develop 190 and 1150 nuclear warheads respectively.
    Under the Indo-US nuclear deal, India’s eight unsafeguarded heavy water power reactors can potentially add 1250 kg of weapon-usable reactor grade plutonium to its existing inventory each year. India can also produce 130 kg of weapon-grade plutonium from each of its five unsafeguarded fast breeder reactors, both under construction and planned. In addition the Dhruva-II reactor can add 24 kg of weapon-grade plutonium to India’s stocks each year, while it continues to produce about 200 kg of highly enriched uranium from its Rare Materials Project for use in nuclear submarines and potentially for nuclear weapons.

    Here is the link which proves my point that Pak has hardly any Uranium available for it to utilise its reactors fully to generate electricity or develop Nukes. What they are infact doing is that they are running their reactors at low levels to be able to divert uranium for production of Plutonium for nukes and as a result there is extreme shortage of electricity in Pakistan which has nearly killed their industrial capacity.

    Jeffrey Lewis • Patton on Pakistan’s U Supply

    khanay ko roti nahin, gaadi main tail nahin, bheekh kay katoray main paisa nahin, rail main engine nahin, desh main bijli nahin, bandook main main goli nahin, top main gola nahin, hawai jahaaz udtay nahin, reactor main uranium nahin, rocket joh chaltay nahin, Phir bhi hum kisisay kum nahin. Allahji bhi pareshaan hain Pakistan say. samjhayain toh kaisay.
     
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  14. Marqueur

    Marqueur Peaceful Silence ELITE MEMBER

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    :blink::blink::blink:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  15. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Cast your minds back to 1998.
    This (from an old post of mine) is why we conducted nuke tests.
    A tale of Indian aggression forcing us to test and declare such status.

     
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