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'Kargil Was a '4-Man Show', Sharif Not Kept Totally in Dark'

Discussion in 'South Asia & SAARC' started by Marqueur, Jan 30, 2013.

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  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I dont think you can consider this a real war, while the India used the full might of its military, Pakistan used some volunteers from its miltiary and some of the insurgants in the area, but this was not much of a war. Hardly any planes or tanks were destroyed. This might be a conflict, or incident but in way was it a real war.
     
  2. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    I agree. But I was thinking, since so much of their fleet is of the older blocks, maybe a Mig 29 will play a significant role (Mig 29s very originally created to take on some of the older F 16 versions right?)
     
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  3. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    They weren't insurgents- they were Northern Light Infantry soldiers made to pretend like they were insurgents.
     
  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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  5. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    So its basically a detailed service History of an Officer
     
  6. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I think I posted the number of armed and well trained infantry men tha we can bring to war within 30 days. The number is more than 400million. YES SIR TO LET THE WORLD KNOW IN CLEAR TERMS, THE NUMBER IS 400 MILLION WHO WILL BE ALL BELOW THE AGE OF 40 YEARS AND WELL VERSED IN THE ART OF WARFARE.
     
  7. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Yes sir.
     
  8. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    MiG-29s were created as a parallel to F-16s and F/A-18s: a short/mid-range air superiority fighter. Russia wanted them to be superior to F-16s, but not with the precise goal of putting them up against each other. Look at the recent invasion of Georgia. If the US had ever gone to war with the USSR, the MiG-29 would've most likely contested with F-15s and defended against any bombers to penetrate Russian air space. Front-line combat for the USSR would've been conducted by Su-27s.

    Regarding IAF-PAK aircraft: Even with the UPG standardisation of our MiG-29s, I'm not sure they're technologically on par with Block 52 F-16s. IAF owns first generation MiG-29s, which all have very limited ability to absorb upgrades, which shows in the fact that unlike the MKI (which was designed and built around Indian requirements), the MiG-29UPG contains largely Russian equipment with very little ancillary equipment sourced from France, Israel, and India.

    The Blk.52's radar, weaponry, avionics, and range is superior to that of the MiG-29UPG, and at least on par with (if not better than) the MiG-29K. The only aircraft in active service in India capable of putting up a good fight against the PAF's F-16 Blk.52s are the MiG-29K and the Su-30MKI. The rest are either antiquated (MiG-21), unsuitable for the role (Jaguar, MiG-29/UPG), or simply not ready (i.e. Mirage 2K, HAL Tejas, Rafale).

    We can only hope cooler heads prevail. War is just stupid in this age and economy.
     
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  9. tunguska

    tunguska Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Pervez Musharraf 'crossed LoC before Kargil war'; V K Singh praises ex-Pak army chief's 'courage'


    ISLAMABAD/NEW DELHI: Weeks before hostilities erupted between Indian and Pakistani troops in the Kargil sector in 1999, Gen Pervez Musharraf crossed the Line of Control in a helicopter and spent a night at a location 11 km inside Indian territory, a former aide to the military ruler has said.

    Col (retired) Ashfaq Hussain, who was a senior officer in the Pakistan Army's media arm, said Musharraf flew across the LoC on March 28, 1999 and travelled 11 km into the Indian side.

    Musharraf, who was accompanied by Brig Masood Aslam, then commander of 80 Brigade, spent the night at a spot called Zikria Mustaqar, where Pakistani troops commanded by Col Amjad Shabbir were present.

    Musharraf, who was then army chief, returned the next day. Hussain first made the revelation in his book 'Witness to Blunder: Kargil Story Unfolds', which was published in late 2008.

    He repeated the assertion last night on a television talk show on the Kargil episode in the wake of Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz's assertion that the intrusions by Pakistani troops were planned by a group of four generals led by Musharraf.

    He further said Pakistani troops first intruded into the Indian side of the LoC on December 18, 1998, when Captains Nadeem and Ali and Havaldar Lalik Jan were sent on a reconnaissance mission.

    "They were never told about the aims and objectives of their mission. Even for a recce, they were not provided any briefing or objectives," he said.

    Shortly after this, several units were told to cross the LoC and occupy positions on the Indian side. Several units competed with each other to go further into the Indian side.

    The intrusions were spotted by a shepherd who informed Indian troops, he said.

    Like the initial reconnaissance mission, there were no aims or objectives set out for the entire Kargil operation, which was masterminded by Maj Gen Javed Hassan, then chief of the Force Command Northern Areas, Hussain said.

    Hassan drew up the plan to occupy Indian positions along the LoC and convinced then Rawalpindi Corps Commander Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmad, then Chief of General Staff Lt Gen Mohammad Aziz and Musharraf to back the venture, Hussain said.

    Hostilities between Indian and Pakistani troops broke out in early May, over a month after Musharraf crossed the LoC and spent a night on the Indian side.

    Besides troops from the Northern Light Infantry, soldiers from 31 Azad Kashmir Regiment, 24 Sindh Regiment, Frontier Force Regiment and artillery units participated in the Kargil operation, Hussain said.

    Hussain, who based his book on interviews with officers who participated in the fighting in Kargil, dismissed Musharraf's claim that the operation was a success.

    "It was a success only till Pakistani forces came face to face with the enemy. In winter, both sides abandoned their positions under a recognised procedure. Our troops crossed the LoC at a time when the enemy was not present. Our troops were not even informed why they were being sent across the LoC," he said.

    "I asked commanding officers and brigade commanders about the aims and objectives of the operation but none of them had answer," he added.

    The generals who planned the operation had believed that the Indian side would not detect the intrusions till late May or early June 1999 but their surmise proved to be wrong, Hussain said.

    Hussain also dismissed Musharraf's recent assertion that Pakistan had lost only 270 soldiers during the Kargil conflict.

    "According to my research, there were over 1,000 casualties on the Pakistani side. The official data (on casualties) was hidden and cannot be accessed," Hussain said.

    Referring to the main opposition PML-N's demand for a judicial commission to probe the Kargil conflict in the wake of Lt Gen (retd.) Aziz's revelations, Hussain said any such inquiry panel should seek all reports on the fighting from the army's General Headquarters so that the true figures for casualties could be made public.

    Though Aziz has said that information he had gathered suggested that then premier Nawaz Sharif was aware of the Kargil operation, Hussain contended that Sharif only learnt of the intrusions at an army briefing in Rawalpindi on May 17, 1999.

    V K Singh praises Musharraf's 'courage'

    Former Pakistan military ruler Gen Pervez Musharraf on Friday received praise for coming deep into Indian territory in Kargil in 1999 from former Army chief Gen V K Singh, who said it showed the "courage" of a military commander.

    Singh, who headed the Indian Army from 2010 to 2012, said there were "mistakes" on the Indian side that allowed Pakistani troops to cross over into Indian territory and let Musharraf go back safely.

    "As far as General Musharraf is concerned, I would like to put it in two ways. One, as a military commander, I would commend Gen Musharraf for coming 11 km (inside Indian territory) to stay with his troops for a night. It is the courage of a military commander that he came so far knowing that there was danger," Singh told reporters here.

    "Second, what was happening on our side you all know and facts are before you. Why did we allow him to go? Why did we allow them to enter? I would only say that there were some mistakes, which need to be rectified," he said.

    Singh was commenting on the revelation by a senior retired officer of Pakistan Army that Musharraf had stayed for a night inside Indian territory with his troops before the three-month conflict erupted in Kargil in 1999. The former Army chief said the revelation was just a confirmation that Pakistan had started the Kargil war. "What happened in 1999, we including the Indian Army know that Pakistan Army had started the Kargil war. There is nothing new in it," Singh said.

    He said Pakistan had been telling lies and "now only its officials are confirming our stand.

    Pervez Musharraf 'crossed LoC before Kargil war'; V K Singh praises ex-Pak army chief's 'courage' - The Times of India
     
  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    In the USA we could arm 200 million people overnight be cause 9 out of 10 people have guns and most have several...nine out of ten adults in the USA have shot a gun. I really doubt if substantial numbers of people are all that much of an asset unless you have enought forces to protect them and support them and weapons to equipment them. The fact is Indias armforces dont have ammunition and equipment to support the military the already have.......
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  11. omya

    omya Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    enemy guns which get overrun doesnt need ammunition....... 400 million is enough
     
  12. madmax613

    madmax613 FULL MEMBER

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    We practically have more soldiers ready for war if needed. ie, the new generation who went through cources such as NCC, MCC!
    I hail from Maharashtra, n joined MCC when i was in 8th grade, then NCC when I was in 11th grade! so more than 5 yrs well versed in army decipline!
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  13. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    You must be very pleased with and an ardent supporter of the NRA
     
  14. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  15. DaRk KnIght

    DaRk KnIght Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I have no concrete information on this point. So let us assume that whatever you are saying is correct.



    A substantial number of PA are at Afghanistan border to protect US interests.


    Wondering why no pakistani govt or General never made any attempt to highlight this issue. Either Indian intelligence agencies are doing perfect work or Pakistan decision makers are stupid.



    Yup. many stupid things were seen on ground as well.



    But we never attacked first to capture lahore....



    It is going to be very long. The moment US leaves Afghanistan....the situation is going to be much worse.


    And IA should strike for what?

    IA generals are only showing their anger against govt. Fortunately for Pakistan, IA generals are not involved in declaring war....otherwise many problems could have been solved. We have already seen the ability of PA generals. Big talks and no results.

    We have seen how effectively strategies are employed by your Army. I wish they apply same strategies. Things will be a lot more simpler. IA didnt cross LoC at kargil and still managed to kill many PA regulars and irregulars with capturing territory.

    You are at war. You cant afford war at another border as well. We opened war on international border for kashmir and if required...we will do it again.
     
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