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Kaveri Engine Program : News and Updates

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by BlueOval, Aug 9, 2010.

?

what type of engine should we have attempted as our first one??

Poll closed Jan 5, 2017.
  1. variable cycle engine

    15 vote(s)
    60.0%
  2. conventional engine

    10 vote(s)
    40.0%
  1. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Issues that need to be addressed
    Aside from the afterburner thrust shortfall issue , the Kaveri design hasn’t yet yielded a flight-worthy prototype either. The existing prototypes suffer from certain design-related issues which will have to be addressed before a Kaveri prototype can be deemed flight-worthy. The occurrence of these issues is pretty-standard in the course of jet engine development and not unexpected.

    The key problems encountered by the Kaveri design, according to sources who have formerly been associated with the program, are:

    • Unacceptable levels of fan-blade flutter risk – It seems that the Kaveri intake may need some redesign to reduce the chances of stall inducing self-excited vibrations (flutter) being experienced by the engine’s duct fan blades.
    • Reheat oscillations – Kaveri prototypes currently experience significant combustion oscillation in their augmentors/afterburners. This also has an impact on specific fuel consumption during reheat.
    • First stage low-pressure compressor blade vibration – The Kaveri’s first stage low-pressure compressor is also experiencing worrisome levels of rotor blade vibrations at the moment.
    http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/04/19/design-issues-indias-kaveri-jet-engine/
     
  2. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  3. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Are you sure the effort of Safran is not to end the developpment of Kaveri by using Indian technology only?
    If not :
    - You are dependant of us for the futur.
    - Is Safran ready to give you up to date alloys and other tech ?

    Or another solution, used when Safran (then SNECMA) and GE agreed to make CFM56 : cold part is indian and hot part is french.
     
  4. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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  5. proud_indian

    proud_indian FULL MEMBER

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    Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets

    Saurav Jha, Apr 19 2017, 23:45 IST
    Snecma's help must be taken to create a Kaveri-derived engine that's Tejas-compatible in the 90 KN category.

    While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) engine that can power an aircraft of this class. Indeed, without mastering contemporary jet engine technology, India’s objective of becoming a true aerospace power will remain unfulfilled.

    As such, after years of domestic effort by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop the Kaveri LBTF engine on its own, India is now turning towards foreign handholding to modify the existing design in order to make it flightworthy.

    While the current collaborative effort is limited in scope, a much bigger programme is needed to bring India up to speed in jet engine technology. It must be noted that China is investing very heavily in this domain and will likely steal a march over India if the latter does not do the same.

    After some Rs 2,133 crores in expenditure and a couple of decades of development, GTRE’s Kaveri has not yet met its design goals in their entirety. As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.

    SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.

    This is precisely why the DRDO has engaged France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (Snecma) to perform a design audit on the Kaveri. At the moment, Snecma is preparing a detailed report outlining the design changes needed to create flightworthy Kaveri prototypes.

    Once Snecma’s report is ready, GTRE expects to get the go-ahead for the next phase of work that will involve modifying existing SoP prototypes and testing them, with a view to creating new prototypes that can be integrated with an actual flight capable airframe. Snecma will also be a consultant for aircraft integration activities.

    As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.

    It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.

    After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.

    One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.

    Greater thrust needed

    However, an engine with this level of thrust is inadequate to power even current combat capable Tejas variants, not to mention future ones. Indeed, the Tejas MK-2 design, given its much greater maximum take-off weight will need a jet engine in the 90 KN wet thrust class.

    It is felt that the work done on the Kaveri programme should be taken forward by enlisting Snecma’s help to create a Kaveri-derived engine in the 90 KN category that would be compatible with the Tejas. To be compatible with the Tejas, this engine would have to retain the dimensions of the existing Kaveri design with compressor and turbine sizes remaining unchanged.

    So, the chief way in which a similar sized derivative can be uprated to 90 KN would be by having an engine core that can withstand much higher turbine entry temperatures. This, in turn, would require the core to be made up of different materials, such as next generation titanium alloys, from what make up the current Kaveri engine core called Kabini.

    This undertaking will not prove cheap though. Dr K Tamilmani, former Director General of DRDO’s Aeronautics cluster, estimates that this effort may cost Rs 10,000 crores and take a decade to complete if work began now.

    However, given that India is likely to import engines worth several multiples of that figure in the next 15 years or so, the expense could well be worth it, since the expertise gained could allow India to indigenise several classes of jet engines, besides delivering an indigenous LBTF for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas fleet.

    Incidentally, the Chinese have already understood the critical importance of being able to design and build modern jet engines and have apparently engaged thousands of technical personnel in a multi-billion dollar effort to achieve the same.

    http://www.deccanherald.com/content/607212/foreign-expertise-key-fire-up.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    zebra7, An Indian and Agent_47 like this.
  6. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Isn't that best you come up with?:p

    Got a deadline of 200+ years for research.
     
  7. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    idrw.org
    India keeps General Electric guessing on engine requirements for LCA-Tejas MK1A

    Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is yet to approach American General Electric for possible supply of additional batch of F404-GE-IN20 engines to power upgraded LCA-Tejas MK1A aircraft and naval prototypes as per company officials information provided to local media.

    General Electric in 2011 had bagged orders for supply of 24 F404-GE-IN20 after-burning engines to power the first operational squadron of Tejas fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force which was follow-on order for 17 F404-GE-IN20 engines ordered in 2004 which were used on limited Series Production aircraft.

    Recently IAF placed orders for 83 LCA-Tejas MK1A with HAL which will have its first flight by 2019 later followed by full-scale production from 2021. LCA-Tejas MK1A will carry similar engine generating 85-90kN thrust for its operations but it is yet to be made clear if HAL will be using F404-GE-IN20 engines or will use GTRE-SAFRAN developed Kaveri engine which according to DRDO will be ready by 2019 for installation in LCA-Tejas PV-1.

    GE Aviation already has supplied Two F414-INS6 engines to power Tejas MK-II and as per contract will deliver Six more engines in next batch to India when MK-II Aircraft Variant is ready for installation. In 2013 India has completed a deal for 99 General Electric F414 engines, the power-plant for the planned Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas Mk II Light Combat Aircraft.

    GE Aviation in mid 90’s also had supplied dozen older F404-F2J3 engines with lesser thrust, which were used to power Technology Demonstrator and Prototype Vehicles of LCA-Tejas which were later replaced by improved India specific F404-GE-IN20 engines.

    UK defence secretary Michael Fallon last month on his visit to India had said that Britain’s engineering major Rolls Royce and DRDO have been working on developing an engine for military jets hinting at possible development of Eurojet engines but he failed to elaborate on details.

    http://idrw.org/india-keeps-general-electric-guessing-on-engine-requirements-for-lca-tejas-mk1a/
     
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The next delay for LCA in the making, thanks DRDO! :angry:
     
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  9. X_Killer

    X_Killer Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I think, our developing agencies want to built a jet wilch will be retired just after the induction.
    They are continuously delaying the Project without any sensible reasons.
    Only 2 Aircrafts were delivered on 1 July , further not a single get added to the fleet till now. They failed to achieve their promised Production rate of 8 units/year
     
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  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Production is one thing, development howeveris the bigger problem, since most delays are caused by development failures or mistakes, just as not a single LCA can be inducted, if FOC can't be achieved. ADA and DRDO still needs to prove the basic capabilities and only then we can think about the operational use.
     
  11. X_Killer

    X_Killer Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    IAF ordered 40 IOC LCA's (HAL already received IOC), if they deliver them within the schedule or prior to the schedule, than it will give a huge boost to the morale.
    A success will lead to more success similarly a failure leads to demorlize and more failures.
    We will think about FOC later (but before 2019) because the manufacturing schedule for FOC LCA's will begin after deliveries of 40 IOC LCA's.
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Which is why more failures should be avoided for LCA, therefor waiting for a Kaveri / Snecma engine, the is neither developed nor might offer the needed thrust, is the next failure and demoraliser!
    We need LCA ASAP, but we don't need Kaveri, so take the necessary time and do it the right way this time, with possibly the aim on AMCA, rather than rushing things now, just to brag about an integration into LCA, which might not even help the fighter.
     
  13. bharathp

    bharathp Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    Putting Kaveri on AMCA will be a disastrous campaign. already AMCA has o come up with complex technologies not tested in India before. we should avoid adding additonal "untested" platforms on it. it should probably come on later mods of AMCA. the best way to go ahead with Kaveri is to use it extensively on LCAs first. that was the whole purpose of LCA - be a learning platform for all our future endeavors.
    so use Kaveri on an LCA variant extensively while we build AMCA on other proven engines (so as to decouple AMCA from any failure/development issues of Kaveri) and then iron out issues on LCA before advancing the engine to other platforms.
     
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  14. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I don't think we would have not placed orders for GE 404.. without valid issues.

    Either Safran Kaveri is promising or GE 404 import is having some trouble . Or both.
     
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Not before it's fully developed and proven of course, but that must be the aim at the end, because we can't afford to have all high end platforms be dependent on foreign engines.

    Which means using LCA as a test bed, which would be risky but still still better than using it for LCA MK1A in operational service, since the same logic of avoiding unnecessary risks for LCA.
     

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