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Kaveri Engine Program : News and Updates

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by BlueOval, Aug 9, 2010.

?

what type of engine should we have attempted as our first one??

Poll closed Jan 5, 2017.
  1. variable cycle engine

    15 vote(s)
    60.0%
  2. conventional engine

    10 vote(s)
    40.0%
  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Yes, but it's a matter of negotiation. Your could easily link it with FGFA negotiations for example. We agree to funds when Russia gives us clearance to integrate own engines on MKI in future.
     
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  2. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Uprated Kaveri with 125KN thrust will be far superior to present engine of SU-30MKI as it is a variable cycle engine. I am sure that French have something unusual to offer for Kaveri and something must have happened for Indians to ask for this change in thrust levels. We may need a slightly bigger diameter for fan and couple of extra compressor stages with right kind of material to withstand the same temperatures as M-88 does to get to those thrust levels. This new Kaveri engine will add more range to SU-30MKI.
     
  3. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The engine proposed by Russians for Super Su has failed the tests already in India. Just for your information.
     
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  4. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    AL-41F-1S?
     
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  5. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    I was thinking on same line. How the hell a 1000-1100 kg 125kn with smaller footprint engine replace a 1800 kg 128 kn with huge footprint. The whole CG of plane will get disoriented and a complete flight test and change to FBW will be required.
     
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  6. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    NOOO. The small engine will have its CG aft of the longer engine. I had written about it on LCA thread.
     
  7. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Bypass ratio is 0.59:1 for AL-31F and 0.16:1 for Kaveri (like the M-88!), but it's very easy to increase the thrust if you have the right to increase the Bypass ratio. So a new version of Kaveri with a bypass ratio at 0.33 will easily have the same thrust than AL-31F and will need only sligh modifications.
     
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  8. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    That's why I stated higher diameter for fan and further increase in stages of compressor. If we get BLISK fan with wide chord fan blades, we may not have to increase the diameter also much.
     
  9. Blackjay

    Blackjay Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    Yes no reason to be overly optimistic.But MKI is the biggest fleet we have and all of them have 2 engines.....
    The numbers are there to justify this development.We will be able to push serviceability of our most potent fighter,too.The engine will be Kaveri in name only.The design will have to be completely different.Luckily we have been assembling/licensed producing MKI engines for long time and must be familiar with design.With some French help this is definitely feasible.
    Will take some creativity to make the Russians agree though.
     
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  10. An Indian

    An Indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    [QUOTE="vstol jockey, post: 581186, member: 6253"
    [...]plus additional USD8B as further savings. [...]
    [/QUOTE]
    @vstol jockey : I apologize but I lost you here. Where did this additional USD 8B savings come from. What did we save. Reason I ask is I would assume if we were doing Kaveri ourselves, it shouldn't cost us more than 1 B or two. Or perhaps I have my math wrong...
     
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Just as it requires an agreement with the French first, to get them to share techs for the use in Russian fighters. And don't forget that they will want a big paycheck too.
    But it's definitely the right direction to make IAF more independent.
     
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  12. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Benefit of Kaveri style engine on SU-30 MKI:
    • You will save on the cost of Maintenance
    • You will increase the availability of SU-30 (it's like if you have more plane)
    • You will fly more hours by plane and by year (300 h instead of 100)
    • You will be able to enroll more pilots (you need between 150 to 200 h a year to train a pilot so with 100h by plane you have 0.75 pilot by plane and with 300h by year you have 2 pilots by plane)
    So it's like if you multiply your fleet by 3.
     
  13. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    No we will agree because you will buy 300 Rafale.
     
  14. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    @vstol jockey : I apologize but I lost you here. Where did this additional USD 8B savings come from. What did we save. Reason I ask is I would assume if we were doing Kaveri ourselves, it shouldn't cost us more than 1 B or two. Or perhaps I have my math wrong...[/QUOTE]
    We were not able to solve the problem and no one was willing to share this tech with us even for money. Rafale deal gave us the window.
    What happens if you are able to develop a core of an engine with such high thrust? You can make a turboprop engine with very high thrust for civil prop driven aircraft, you can make high thrust helicopter engines with same core. We can replace every engine on MI-17s with Indian engine derived from this engine and also upgrade our ALH and LCH while we can make the helos for IN reqts from this engine. This engine will give us thrust higher than what Apache engines have.
     
  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    LOL, unless you deliver on Kaveri and offsets, forget about further orders. BUT, There will be more orders for Rafale from IAF.
     
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