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Kaveri Engine Program : News and Updates

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by BlueOval, Aug 9, 2010.

?

what type of engine should we have attempted as our first one??

Poll closed Jan 5, 2017.
  1. variable cycle engine

    15 vote(s)
    60.0%
  2. conventional engine

    10 vote(s)
    40.0%
  1. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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  2. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Nothing, just to remind that, what ever I have learned, studied, and researched about the Kaveri Saga is that, an aggressive national program and effort is needed to cross the barrier in the same way Chinese are pushing. And that includes Rolls Royce, heard its economical condition is not healthy and now wanted a JV with India to produce the turbofan engine -- Civilian use. What we are lacking at present is

    1. Precission Manufacturing ability.
    2. Metallurgical
    3. Thermo barrier Coating tech.
    4. Single Crystal Blade tech.
    5. New Developments such as Contra Rotating Fans
    6. Testing and Validating facilities and Labs, including Airborne Testing platforms.

    What ever GTRE have achieved is remarkable with such a punny budget, restrains and manufacturing in house manufacturing capability.

    1. Luckily, the growth of technology of Turbofan engine is slow, and we need a big push to cross over to the final destination.
    2. RR do have a good experience, technology and know how for the turbofan engine.
    3. Pictures of the Desi Ceramic Crystal Blades Developed by DRDO, even if of 2nd Generation is a remarkable achievement.
    4. The Problem in the Kaveri GTX 35 bar the Spleech problem is that they are forced to use the Suboptimal Blisk design and HPT compressor stages, due to the lack of the manufacturing capability in the country, and in this case by MIHANI.
    5. No OEM is going to give any tech. to the India, so all talks of the Safran Kaveri is only the consultancy for the Spleech problem, and the certification of the flight safety, needed for the last phase aks Supersonic Aerial test on the MIG 29 test bed. All talks of strapping the Kaveri in the Single engine is LCA PV is funny.

    What should be done.

    1. Should go for the JV turbofan engine development with the RR for the huge civilian market in our country. Acquire manufacturing ability. Make deals with the RR for the using their testing labs, CFD analysis tools, Design methodology, acquire IPRs for the Super Alloys developed for the particular turbofan engine.
    2. Declare Turbo fan engine development as a national project and order Tandem Seat LCA MK-1 LIFT and put the Kaveri on the Service.
    3. Don't limit the GTRE with the Govt. PSU's and take full advantage of the Tata metallurgical group, which even had takeover one of the biggest European Steel and Metallurgical company which supplied to alloys and raw material to various European weapon manufacturers including Ships, combat planes, etc. At present we are using US supplied alloy.
    4. Stick to the Blisk at the moment, and keep researching on the SCB, thermo barrier coating.
    5. Take consultancy help from Snerma/RR for the Modular Design.
    6. Order Aerial Test bed from Airbus.
     
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  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    AMCA requires 2 x 110+ kN Kaveri class engines.
    MKI requires 2 x 125+ kN AL31 class engines.

    Don't let yourself confuse by the higher thrust, we are talking about 2 different engines here!
    One for LCA and possibly medium class fighters, while the other would be for heavy class fighters.
     
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  4. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    India will ruin Su-30MKI Fleet with Kaveri engines: Russian Defence Analysts
    Published August 6, 2017 SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG

    [​IMG]
    Reacting to India media reports that India and France have discussion to develop a 125kN Kaveri engine to replace AL-31FP engines in Su-30MKI , s Andrei Frolov, editor-in-chief of the magazine “Export of Arms” , a researcher at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies told Russian media that India will ruin its Su-30MKI Fleet with Kaveri engine upgrade and is a rather strange step. Frolov also said that ” India will require services of Irkut Corporation the Orginal makers of Su-30MKI to carry out engine replacement but also doubted if Russian companies will agree to help India coordinate such changes”. Frolov also added that ” We have given enough Transfer of Technology to Indian companies and Indians have practically mastered the independent production of the Su-30 and they might not require Russian help at all”. in the end he was also doubful if the development will be seriously pursued since Indo-French Kaveri engine for LCA-Tejas is yet to be developed . Frolov also pointed out that India and Russian recently signed a contract to improve spares for AL-31FP engines along with its gradual localization. Report agreed that India might want to reduce its dependence on Russia in support of its Su-30MKI but also warned that non-authorised changes will result in Russian companies pulling out of sales and service support.

    http://idrw.org/india-will-ruin-su-30mki-fleet-with-kaveri-engines-russian-defence-analysts/ .
     
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  5. An Indian

    An Indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Expected!!! We MUST integrate and test the Kaveri Engines with the Su-30MKI
     
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  6. Pundrick

    Pundrick Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    GHANTA!!!

    By the time kaveri is ready for testing many of the MKI engines will start completing its life cycle, IAF should not wait for kaveri other wise upgradation of MKIs will be jeopardized.

    Kaveri suits Mig-29 rather than MKI.
     
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  7. Blackjay

    Blackjay Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    DRDO chief seems to have confirmed that saffran-kaveri,will not have kabini core but m88 one.The statement was that with cabini ,Tejas will not be able to reach it's full flight envelope.This probably mean it will be more Saffran than Kaveri.:(

    The interview seems to be given to force magazine.Is any one here a subscribed member,maybe they can confirm.Here is the link-
    http://forceindia.net/interview/cha...ry-department-of-defence-rd-dr-s-christopher/

    There is some stuff about DRDO AIP too.

    PS- Let me credit an unnamed indian forum for this info.
     
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  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Can you post the full article?
     
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  9. Blackjay

    Blackjay Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    I am not subscribed either that's why I can't confirm.However a snippet is posted in BRF.
    No reason to doubt it.
     
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  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    No problem.

    We know that the engine project was cancelled, because it had not much hope. Just as we know, that IAF initially rejected the Kaveri Snecma deal for too little benefits for the Indian engine development know how.
    And sadly we have seen throughout the whole LCA program, that we have to get back to foreign stuff at then end, so more M88 than Kaveri wouldn't be that surprising either.
     
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  11. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    lol so, safran guys need 18 months time to upgrade m88 core and not to fix the Kaveri issue :p so why we are wasting our 1 billion offsets in Kaveri, french guys are simply using 1 billion dollar in upgrading their core engine
     
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  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    M88 core means upgraded Kaveri will come out superior to F414INS6
     
  13. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    if they are using current m88 core, i dont think kaveri thrust will be more than 84 Kn and french guys are simply making us fool by using 1 billion dollar offsets in kaveri engine by giving their core or they are upgrading their core engine
     
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  14. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    M88 core means a dry thrust of about 65KN and wet thrust of over 100KN. If they mate M88 core to Kaveri without upgrading Kaveri engine and claim one billion euro as cost, that will be cheating.
     
  15. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    http://www.rediff.com/news/report/drdo-stalling-tejas-fighter-engine-iaf/20100628.htm

    Further, says a top IAF source, a Kaveri engine based on Snecma's new core will leave the Tejas short of performance, providing barely 83-85 Kilonewtons (KN) of maximum thrust. In contrast, the GE and Eurojet engines already short-listed for selection provide 90-96 KN, a significant advantage. The source says sneaking in the underpowered Kaveri-Snecma engine through the GTRE back door will damage the LCA project.

    For the IAF, the performance of the new engine is crucial. It has agreed to accept the Tejas into service as soon as the fighter obtains its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December, even though the Tejas does not yet fly, climb, turn or accelerate fast enough. The IAF's accommodation is based on a promise from the ADA that a new, more powerful engine will overcome all the Tejas' current performance shortfalls.

    Senior IAF officers explain that the DRDO needs the Tejas project to endorse the Kaveri-Snecma engine because Snecma insists on a minimum assured order of 300 engines as a precondition for partnering GTRE in "joint development". Since India's futuristic Medium Combat Aircraft -- the other potential user of a Kaveri-Snecma engine -- has not yet been sanctioned, only the Tejas programme, with some 120-140 fighters planned, provides the numbers needed for satisfying Snecma.

    upload_2017-8-8_23-7-0.png
     

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