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Kaveri-Snecma engine to power AMCA ?

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by bhagat, May 21, 2011.

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  1. bhagat

    bhagat 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    If sources are to be believed ADA has send a Technical requirement detail for the engines which will power India’s locally developed 5th Generation fighter aircraft to the GTRE recently .ADA which is the prime development organisation of the Advance Medium Combat Aircraft is looking for an engine in 100 to 110 kn thrust range, and while the work on the preliminary designs are almost done and work on the AMCA Project will officially began from July 2011 onwards for which 2 billion Dollars have already been allocated for the AMCA Project.

    GTRE has successfully carried out first batch of on board trials on a modified IL-76 Test Bed in Russia. Even though Kaveri engine project has been delinked from LCA Project few years back , GTRE is still hope full that current Kaveri engines might power Tejas MK-1 aircrafts when their GE Provided F-404IN engines will come up for replacement.

    GTRE and French for long time wanted to work on a new Kaveri Hybrid based on M-88-3 Eco, but due to GTRE engine already been delinked on LCA Project , French wanted specific commitment on the engine order , now if the news is correct then the joint venture might finally start off .

    ADA is taking very similar approach like it did with LCA Project and will roll out first Technological Demonstrators (AMCA TD-1 and TD-2) in next 5 to 6 years and have first flight in next one year after the roll out. Experts believe that ADA might use GE Provided F-414IN engine which has been already selected by ADA to power Tejas MK-2 jets.
     
  2. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    i have read this report that AMCA will be powered by Kaveri engine with is co-developed by GTRE and Snecma. First question is this engine meeting fully Stealth requirements. i have also read that AMCA has to be fully Stealth other wise not Acceptable. not sure this engine is fully compatible for Stealth aircraft. So is GE F 414. A contradictions - no clarity available.

    Why insistence of commitment ? is n't collaboration is for development not for production based on Fees. Confusing.. Does any one know what exact fine print agreement between India and France wrt Kaveri engine ?
     
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  3. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    What about k-9 and k10 series engine
    i hope they power lca mk2 and amca
     
  4. flanker143

    flanker143 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    there is nothing like stealth engines mate....any ab turbo fan can be used in stealth jets like al31/ws 10 being used on j 20.....
    The only stealth aspect that matters is their ir signature which can be reduced using specially designed nozzels....
     
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  5. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    yes IR signature reduction requires special nozzles which require cooling off hot gases. So will engine will have those nozzles ?
     
  6. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    We don't know that yet. There are also other measures of reducing IR signatures. Another method is to pull air from the intake and bypass it, and then mix it with the exhaust gases at the end. So that bypassed air doesn't go into the combustion chamber, and its cold. When its mixed with the hot exhaust air, it reduces its temperature.
     
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  7. Hembo

    Hembo OLD MOD STAR MEMBER

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    Neither exhaust nozzle nor Air intake design is part of the engine per-se. So the engine can be any turbo fan engine with adequate power can be used either in stealth or stealthy or non-stealth air crafts, as pointed out by flanker143. The stealthyness is highly dependant on the airframe design, air intake, exhaust and built in avionics etc. only. But not at all on the engine. Hope this makes the matter clearer.
     
  8. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    nozzle reduce IR signature not radar signature
    i saw this documentary at discovery they reduce IR signature by 40% and it is matter
     
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  9. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Correct, we were talking about reducing IR signature, at least I was.
     
  10. Rudrakx

    Rudrakx Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    I think I saw that documentary too, where they try different shaped nozzles on lab scale turbofan Engine and check the IR signature.
    Correct me here if wrong,
    When 40% reduction was observed in "blazing exhaust stream" it was because the special nozzle spreads exhaust (and shorten the blazing stream) rather than shooting it forward with longer blazing stream !? (am I correct?) Does this reduce the power out put ?If yes how why?
    Why can't exhaust be hidden to reduce IR ?
     
  11. flanker143

    flanker143 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    i think thats what high (or i should say all) bypass engines do....but i think it is aimed at achieving better thrust and efficiency instead of reducing ir signature.....
     
  12. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    It does not spread the exhaust, what it does is it releases the exhaust air into the atmosphere step by step gradually. All of the exhaust air doesn't come in contact with the atmosphere at the same time. As some of the air get released, it spreads, and pulls with it some of the surrounding cold air, which mixes with the rest of the hot exhaust gases released later. This way the air cools down very quickly.
     
  13. Skull and Bones

    Skull and Bones Doctor Death Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Special jet nozzle shaping can definitely help in reducing the IR signature, in spite of making the exhaust more directive, we can reduce the exhaust tail by dispersing the exhaust, thus it will reduce the length of the jet nozzle tail, reducing its IR signature.
     
  14. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Yes, it is used in most of the jet engines, but the kind I am talking about is a little different. What I am saying is that the air won't enter the engine at all, but will be routed outside the engine, and will only come into contact with it at the exhaust nozzles.
     
  15. Skull and Bones

    Skull and Bones Doctor Death Staff Member MODERATOR

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    This thing has a problem, mixing cold air with the exhaust fumes inside the nozzle will decrease the thrust, separate outlets has to made adjacent to the nozzle, so that jet fumes mixes well with the cold air.
     
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