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LCA MK2 VS Saab Gripen-An analysis in Indian context

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by HariPrasad, Dec 30, 2016.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I have nothing to do with LSA. That's @vstol jockey's private project. I merely support it since if it works out, it will be better than any other jet we are procuring.
     
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  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Balaji says 2035. I believe it.

    First flight is in 2025, so expect 10 years of flight tests. Of course, there is a good chance it won't be ready until 2040.
     
  3. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    You are too naive. You will believe everything with critically analysing it . :biggthumpup:
     
  4. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    The problem is even if we managed to get it flying by 2020 (optimistic IMO), it will be a while before it gets FOC. Gripen E first flight in 2017, FOC expected in 2026. And they have been flying Gripen Demo with F414/AESA for all these years!
     
  5. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    It was said several times that Mk2 is an upgrade to the same design of MK1A with slight modifications to dimensions. The delta wing and other aerodynamics will be same. So, 2030 is some kind of hoax. If we compare with other countries and their plane building, then we can be reasonably sure of LCA Mk2 in production by 2025. In fact, MK1A is being slowed down to ensure production line is busy till 2024.

    That one interview was either misquote or the chief was unwilling to give proper dates fearing previous record of govt delays

    AMCA also is in design stage with its external design and aerodynamics being completed. AMCA is going to have test flights by 2024.
     
  6. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    JUNE 15, 2017 first flight.
    Delivery 2019-20

    Gripen Demo is a TD to get customers. Not a prototype.
     
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  7. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    10 years of flight tests are to confirm the fly by wire system. India has already developed a fly by wire system for delta wing which will be the same design for Mk2. So, the flight testing will be pretty quick. Delta wing is extremely unstable of all the designs and the fly by wire must be very robust. So, the slight modification is likely to require only minor code changes.

    I am even suspecting if AMCA will be much easier due to the advanced fly by wire system which by virtue of its robustness can be easily adapted to different designs
     
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    What do you mean what will HAL do in the meantime? They will have FGFA. They will have Ghatak also. They can export the Mk1As in the meantime.

    Flight testing until 2023 is only for prototypes, after that we will get LSPs. After that we will see SP. Mk2 is a very long project. Even Saab took 10+ years for Gripen E even though it is simply a modified Gripen D.

    All other Mk2 type modifications have taken 10+ years in all air forces. Mig-35, Gripen E, just google when they started flying and when they were introduced. Mig-35 has the same basic airframe as the Mig-29M and it still isn't ready. Even Rafale F4 development time is 8 years.

    How will ADA magically achieve the impossible when others can't?

    Balaji's quote was real.

    When do you think I started talking about SE MII? When do you think I started talking about a second tranche of Rafales?

    Ask the senior members. I've known about SE requirement long before Rafale was even shortlisted. I've known about Modi's SE MII back since 2014.
     
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    This was the first time someone from ADA gave realistic deadline. Better believe it.

    It's not a simple upgrade, there are major changes to the airframe, engine etc. New control laws have to be written. Then there's sensor fusion, 5th gen avionics etc that has to be tested.
     
  10. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    You have a very unrealistic reasoning. AMCA will have a 16 year development time after FSED stage starts. First flight is expected only in 2025.

    The flight control system will be entirely new.
     
  11. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Gripen E is an improvement to survive in the export market for Saab. Now they got the customer (money) they will finish the project in 4-5 years by 2020. Russia was broke, Su-27 only because of us and chinese. Rafale F4 ? really?

    LCA mk2 is approved in 2010. Works started by 2012-13. Fund is available. Nothing compared to these examples.


    You believe a private citizen can make a fifth generation aircraft in less than 5 years time. So, don't push it.
     
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  12. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    That is fir Gripen E/F. It is not even designed yet. It was sanctioned in 2016-17 after getting orders from South africa and brazil. Gripen E/F will take 10 years for designing to manufacturing the given orders of about 100 planes
     
  13. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Unlikely
     
  14. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    Yes, I never denied that first flight is expected in 2024-25. After that, the development time will be about fine tuning and not redesigning. As soon as IOC is received, the mass manufacture will begin. People don't wait for FOC. Also, many other components like AESA, BVR are already in development. So, it will be 2030 for production
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    All wrong. Read up on Gripen Demo.

    Su-27 and our participation has nothing to do with technical problems.

    Rafale F4, yes, 8 years development plan. 2017-2025.
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/france-launches-f4-standard-rafale-development-435500/
    It's a bigger deal than Mk2.

    Work started in late 2016. Saab also received funding in Feb 2013, and their jet is already flying. The Demo has been flying even before that. So Saab already had the airframe ready with the Demo before they got the funding for Gripen E. Not to mention, all this after 250 airframes were built. HAL is yet to build the first airframe and yet to deliver a full squadron.

    So Saab has a 4-5 year head start in development time alone and are promising FOC in 2023 for Brazil and 2025 for Sweden.

    Compared to Gripen E, the transition from LCA Mk1 to LCA Mk2 is even bigger. They simply changed a bit of stuff internally, particularly moving the landing gear into the wing, while we are redesigning the entire fuselage again.

    It's because the design is simple and uses ready made avionics. Even LCA is more complex than LSA/MSA when it comes to flight controls.
     

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