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LCA MK2 VS Saab Gripen-An analysis in Indian context

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by HariPrasad, Dec 30, 2016.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Even the Americans and Russians have not achieved this feat.
     
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Okay, it's all tentative.

    The issue with European timelines is they were affected by the end of the Cold War.
     
  3. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Looks like you know more about gripen than LCA. Your conclusions are parallel with it.

    Screenshot (16).png
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    This shows that the Gripen was many years ahead compared to LCA Mk2. While India was doing a review of the design in 2014, the Swedes were already building their first real prototype. Now while we are building ours, they are already flying. While we start flying, they will start LSP. While we get to LSP, they will have finished IOC and FOC. And after a few years later, we will also achieve IOC.

    Plus, Saab is quite punctual, similar to Dassault. The date you see is the date they deliver. ADA is not at that level yet.

    Lastly, Gripen E has actual air force interest, while Mk2 no longer has IAF interest. Rather, the Mk2 program is focusing on the naval prototype now. The naval prototype will come with redesigned inlets, central fuselage and 700Kg extra fuel.
     
  5. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    Do you know how long it takes to assemble LCA Tejas Mk1A? 6Months. If any additional equipment is fitted like AESA, EW etc it may be 7months. This is despite the usage of Carbon composite and delta wing which reduces the time to make by 40-50%.

    Now, AMCA has already cleared design stage after 1:1 scaled model testing for RCS and other parameters and the funds sanctioned for prototype building just recently. So, prototype is probably already in construction by now. The fly by wire and avionics are also in development.

    According to your own words, it is 16 year development cycle and this started in 2014 itself.

    Again, as I mentioned earlier, the assembly time of Tejas is 6-7 months and for a more complicated plane like AMCA, it may be 12 months. So, by 2030 the production can begin while leaving scope for retrofitting as more tests come in. AMCA is modular.

    It is definitely not a feat unachievable by USA. USA completed F22 in 15 years - 1990-2004. AMCA, on the other hand is the result of the design with Russia for PAK-FA. India has spent 400 million dollars too for design.

    There are changes to airframe but not major. Unless there is any hurdle in testing arises, it is a minor change. Also, unlike Russia, India has abundant resources in coding. So, things can be speeded up by hiring more talented people
     
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  6. proud_indian

    proud_indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    where did you read that?
     
  7. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    Sources
     
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  8. proud_indian

    proud_indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    what sources?
     
  9. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/breaking-news-amca-project-to-be.html?m=1

    Plus insider source that said that funds for prototype is released recently. The first completed flight testing is by 2024-5 and IOC by 2027-8. Prototype completion and prototype flight worthiness by 2021.

    You can call the first flight as 2021 but I choose the completion date as prototype flight is just a very primitive test like Tejas 2001 first flight.
     
  10. proud_indian

    proud_indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    your source doesn't confirm "AMCA has already cleared design stage after 1:1 scaled model testing for RCS". It just repeats what ADA chief told Livefist in feb 2017 that they are making 1:1 model to test RCS.

     
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  11. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    They have got find for prototype making is what I said. This is from internal source who works in the field. This was in September this year. The final design was selected which looks similar to F22 in canards and wings.

    I think it should be obvious that once the design is in 1:1 scale testing, it must have completed design phase and is in final climax part of finalising the model after narrowing down the chosen designs to a small number (in this case 8-9). So, once you hear that something is in 1:1 scale test, you can be fairly certain that design phase is almost over.

    Even prototype is part of development. Until the final configuration is arrived at, it is considered to be under development phase. The difference between prototype and 1:1 model is that in prototype plane will have real flight worthy materials. But in 1:1 scale model, the plane will be made from non flight worthy material but of reasonable strength and RCS similarity to work well in wind tunnel
     
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  12. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    What will be the timeline of Mk1A ?

    When will be it's First flight ?
     
  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I don't know if you know what manufacturing really means. Assembly may take 7 months, but that's not full production.

    Also, it's 16 years from FSED, FSED is yet to start.
     
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  14. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    FSED started just recently with sanction of funds for prototype building. Design has been tested and final model selected to conclude design stage. Now, it is in FSED with prototype flight worthiness (technology demonstration) in 2020-1.

    India started the design phase in 2008 with Russia and the same FGFA design is adapted. India has the advantage of learning from American experience qnd Russian experience of 5th generation fighters. China took merely 9 years for 5th generation J20 development to IOC. It may be by 2020 they will get FOC. Where is your 16 year theory now? It is stated that J31 will take 10-11 years from FSED (2008-9) to IOC (2019). Why do you think that it is impossible to get IOC version by 2027-28 for AMCA considering that Chinese have done this?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Which aircraft are you talking about? AMCA requires 16 years from FSED. FSED it yet to start. First flight of TD is only in 2025.

    LCA Mk2, FSED has started in 2016, first flight is expected only in end 2018 or early 2019.

    India started design phase in 2010. Nothing's happened after that with FGFA.

    Irrelevant to AMCA.

    The Chinese are in the LSP stage, not SP stage. They have many more years to go for IOC.

    And this jet they have is only an interim jet, they still need to add new engines and test it.

    What makes you think their schedule is correct? And how is that in anyway related to what India is doing? The J-31 is a crappy aircraft they want to sell to a small export market. And the J-20 is at least 5+ years away from becoming anything meaningful.

    Look up when the development of F-22 and PAK FA began. Why will ADA do better than the US or Russia?

    You need 10 years to make modifications to an aircraft. You need minimum 15 years to make a new aircraft.

    What Balaji said is what will happen. He's the ADA Chief FFS.
     

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