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LCA MK2 VS Saab Gripen-An analysis in Indian context

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by HariPrasad, Dec 30, 2016.

  1. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Yes but in last year they made some 30+ ALH. Let us give some credit.
     
  2. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Yes... ALH is wonderful.. Credits to HAL... Lets wish them luck and hope we see MK. 2 in Production by 2020. If that happens... Our Nation will be happy... 30 years of work will finally payoff it's all on HAL now... Everything.
     
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  3. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    If LCA Mk.2 really turns out as predicted here, I will have a new favourite aircraft. But if what I know about HAL is correct, Mk.2 will be introduced maybe in 2050...
     
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  4. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    You don't have to copy paste the same rant on every thread.

    You do understand many of the stuff listed here is either not under HAL or not even sanctioned by MoD?
    What is this slow progress on HTFE ? What is the benchmark of engine development speed here?
     
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  5. Kane0610

    Kane0610 FULL MEMBER

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    I am quite surprised to hear that MK1A would be ready by 2017 due to following reasons:
    1) MK1A is not just integrating EW pod and AESA Radar. It also involves rearranging important equipment within the aircraft for ease of maintenance.
    2) MK1A is also supposed to undergo weight reduction in the form of redesigned landing gear, removal of ballast etc. This again might take sometime.
    3) The IFR integration alone is going to take its own time

    What you are saying might be true (Atleast I hope it is true). But It is too early to comment. We will have to wait until mid 2017 as, that is when the winner of the tenders for EW and AESA would be announced and orders placed. Then the OEM will take their own time to deliver the first sets of AESA and EW for integration and flight tests. This again will take its own time. All in all 2017 seems to be an impossible target.

    A more realistic target would be 2018 end or even mid 2019 (that is when the production of LCA MK1 IOC2 config would come to an end).
     
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  6. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Yes... Exactly... They themselves said it was going to be 2018 for the first flight....And by 2028 all Deliveries Complete (MK1A) that is...
    Let's hope the 2028 line doesn't get pushed....

    http://www.millenniumpost.in/NewsContent.aspx?NID=332614
     
  7. sunny6611

    sunny6611 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    yes HAL is a big company.

    but
    they do not respect time
    they do not have any time base inventory management
    they do not have a 3 work shifts per day
    when they r paid (handsomely) for delay .... then y bother.
    CAG reports r just a paper no 1 will take any action.
    claims r made for everything... ie achieved ... & then we all learn that its all a hoaxes.
    its always some other who is responsible for delay but never HAL !!
    IAF, IN, IA keep changing their requirements,so what if the product is delayed by decades.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Good effort, but you are taking too much for granted for the MK2, although it's nothing more that a paper plane and that much can chang during the real develepment, like we have seen in th Tejas project anyway. But you can also look at the Gripen and see the difference between plan and reality! The initial plan for it''s emptyweight was around 6000Kg which then kept growing and growing.
    By the fact that LCA already has big weight issues, it is more than likely that an MK2 will remain with overweight and with all the changes considered for the navy in the first place (added internal fuel tanks, redesigned wings, airframe extention for avionics, around 7000Kg is more than realistic.

    In terms of sensors the Gripen outclasses the MK2 with it's wide field of view for the Aesa as well as IRST.

    Ew and avionics is not decided for MK2, so can't be compared.

    The next big disadvantage is the load config, where MK2 remains with far too less hardpoints, to be a viable multi role fighter. In most A2G configs, it won't be able to carry bvr missiles, which makes dedicated fighter escorts necessary.

    Tech wise MK2 will be in a similar 4.5th gen class, but capability wise, it's more comparable to an upgraded Gripen C/D.
     
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  9. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Not agreed. Mk2 is not a paper plane but upgrad of mk1. So all figures such as weight and other parameters are derived from mk1 which is flying. So far as AESA and EW is concern, we have multiple options to choose from and all countries are ready give them. Intact very high T/W ratio will give Tejas a big advantage over Gripen E. Only draw back shall be lower length and marginally higher drag compared to gripen E.
     
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  10. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    At 5.5T empty and 5T payload, Mk1A will be better than Mk2. Mk1A will also have greater TWR than Mk2.
     
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  11. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Kaveri is almost certain to enter the game , not sure which side ..
    Mk1A or Mk2
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    That's not correct, LCA M1A ist the upgrade of the MK1, since both versions are based on the same airframe, but the MK1A additionally gets AESA radar, new EW kits and a refuelling probe.

    LCA MK2 on the other hand is based on a new airframe, which is meant to be longer and wider to house more avionics, additional internal fuel tanks and the GE414 engine.
    This airframe however is only planned and doesn't exist, therefor all it's specs are only projected

    For Gripen that was the same case!
    Gripend C/D was an upgrade based on the older A/B airframe. Gripen E however is based on a new airframe, which was developed from the Gripen NG tech demonstrator.


    Coming back to the LCA...

    ...according to the official specs on the Tejas website, the emptyweight of the Mk1 is 6560Kg

    [​IMG]


    According to HAL Managing Director Suvarna Raju...the MK1A adds another 50Kg weight, compared to the MK1...

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    So the first 123 x LCA will have a weight around 6600KG and the less powerful engine, while MK2's weight will go up significantly, because of the new airframe and it's changes, but possibly the GE414 to somewhat counter the weight.

    Wrt AESA, we already selected the EL2052 for MK1A and most likely add the indigenous Uttam AESA for MK2, but both on fixed arrays planned so far, which doesn't provide the wide field of view of Gripe E's AESA.

    As I said, sensors, weapon load and weapons, will be clear strong points of Gripe E, the rest will depend on what specs LCA MK2 actually will have at the end.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  13. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    If you know at all that why the LCA mk2's length was increased 0.5 m only instead of more than 1 m to exploit full aerodynamic potential , you will get answer. It was done to maintain similarities with mk1 to reduce testing time because of airframe similarities. Air frame in both Variats shall be different but lots of similarities and common in them.

    So far as weight of mk1 is concern, it is stated in multiple forum that mk1 will have reduced wight. Dead weight of more than 200 kg shall be removed. Landing gear will loose weight etc. Overall more than 300 to 500 kg weight shall be lost. If final weight is more by 50 kg, there will be something else which will add 350 to 550 kg weight. Can you explain what it will be?
     
  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    As I already said, to include additional avionics and fuel tanks, which were requirements by the forces.


    Dead weight will be replaced with the weight of AESA and EW, as the Managing Director explained. Please read the source I added.
     
  15. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I thought MMR radar Wight should also be added for the exchange .

    MMR weight + ballast ~ AESA + EW .
     

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