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LCA Tejas Multirole Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Dark_Prince, Apr 14, 2010.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The Mk1A will come with Kaveri engine. The Mk2 with F414. Why will the IAF choose the Mk2?

    And Mk1A and Mk2 differences will not be severe enough to warrant a new model. They can introduce the Mk2 electronics on Mk1A also.
     
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  2. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Let's give mk2 to private sector, simultaneously build both Mk1A and MK2 , replace and increase the squad
    numbers ..
    We have a competition between hal and private company for further orders
     
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  3. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    To do that IAF has to take ownership, Commit to upto 400 Planes of different configurations, in 1P, Mk2 and additional blocks of developments. This will drive down the cost of the units, increase margins for Pvt sctor to commit to such a venture.

    Take an example of ATAGS, L&T, Tata, Mahindra and Punjj Lloyd , all are involved because the army has already committed to about 1600 to 2000 guns.

    If you want PVT sector to participate, you need your own forces to have the foresight to see what the system's potential is, unless the IAF brass get's its act together, there won't be much hope.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    No private company wants to compete with HAL. They are not capable of doing that anyway.
     
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  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The IAF wanted to give $4B in guaranteed orders, with 200 LCAs minimum back in 2014, along with assured orders for other projects as well. No private company took it up.

    The private companies said they only want subcontracting work.
     
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  6. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant Technical Analyst

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    Wrong. IAF was never willing to pursue Mk1 and Mk1A never even existed in anyone's imagination until late 2015. This issue is simple, IAF is not willing to order more Tejas until MK1A proves its worth. This is exactly why HAP production ramp up is scheduled for 2020 and not before that. This talks about Private partner and all that will only heat up past 2018-2019 once IAF is satisfied with Mk1A. This could lead to big orders for 1A's which could justify private production lines. At present it makes no sense to have a private partner when you dont even have the product you need. So again all this talk about Private partners being given offers and no-one turning up is purely non-existent.

    However private partners were offered DHruv production line and our very own HAL made the rules too unrealistic for anyone to be interested. All this talk about Mk2 being ready about the same time as Mk1A and all is just HAL tricks to try and convince RM not to pursue a single engine foreign fighter for MII program. From the Horse's mouth, besides the contracted Rafale and Tejas orders, IAF needs minimum 200-250 fighter aircraft in 10 years. Anyone in HAL and ADA can easily figure that its now or never for Mk2 and their honeymoon period is long over. The slated requirement of 250 fighters in 10 years can only be filled by 2 foreign fighters as per my personal opinion as the first MII jet will not roll-out before 2020 realistically.

    My personal prediction for 10 years till 2027:

    Rafale - 126 IAF + 57 IN (excluding current order of 36)

    Single engine fighter - 126 IAF

    Note: Both requirements will have some amount of off-the shelf mainly for the IN and Single engine requirement while majority will roll out through MII.

    Good Day!
     
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  7. Kane0610

    Kane0610 FULL MEMBER

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    IMO mk1A will not have Kaveri. We are all speculating with hope. Howerver, it will not be that easy to get the engine running and certified within 18 months.

    Although I may not know about the techicalities, I am anticipating that a lot of tests will be conducted before the engine is given a go ahead to be used on a single engine aircraft. So there will first be ground tests, then the engine would be mounted on a test bed (mig 29/ any other aircraft). After all the tests, the engine would be cleared to be tested on tejas. I guess even that requires some testing and only then we will have tejas with kaveri cleared for production.
     
  8. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Pal we all know that the LCA program is missed managed and hoping the jokers get their shit together and get the M1A/Mk2 in the air soon. Call it HAL trick or whatever ITS ABSOLUTE ludicrous and tom foolhardy and all the crazy words in the thesaurus. We all want the IAF to reduce the no. of type NOT increase it! One has to achieve the 200-250 aircraft! , split it between the Rafale/Tejas and if possible - Su30s (people are forgetting the Super 30 programs)
     
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  9. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Reliance starting from scratch. .
    That too the most important aircraft. .
     
  10. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Aircraft carrier version of Tejas still alive, despite navy opposition

    [​IMG]
    ADA chief, Commodore CD Balaji, after a sortie he flew today in the Tejas Mark I

    By Ajai Shukla
    Bengaluru
    Business Standard, 31st Dec 16


    A decade ago, a far-sighted navy chief, Admiral Arun Prakash, posted his most talented engineering officer, Commander CD Balaji, to develop the Naval Tejas fighter at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme.

    Prakash, and several navy chiefs who followed him, continued backing the Naval Tejas with funds and personnel, even as the Indian Air Force (IAF) dragged its feet.

    Now, ironically, the navy has turned its back on the Tejas, even as the IAF has backed the Tejas with orders for 103 fighters.

    Although Balaji is now a commodore and the head of ADA, the admirals have insisted since April that they want to buy 57 foreign fighters instead of the Tejas. These will equip two current aircraft carriers: INS Vikramaditya, purchased from Russia, and INS Vikrant, nearing completion at Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL).

    On Navy Day earlier this month, navy chief, Admiral Sunil Lanba publicly announced that the Tejas would not meet the navy’s requirements.

    Business Standard learns that the navy wants ADA to develop a carrier deck version of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), an indigenous, twin-engine, fifth-generation, stealth fighter that is unlikely to enter service before 2030.

    This inexplicable volte-face by the last two navy chiefs --- Admiral RK Dhowan who retired in May and Admiral Sunil Lanba who succeeded him --- opens the doors for two global vendors: Boeing, which is offering its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; and Dassault, which has already sold 36 Rafale fighters to the IAF.

    Unexplained by the navy is the future role of its 45 MiG-29K/KUB fighters, which India paid over $2 billion for, and which were to equip the Vikramaditya and Vikrant, with 22-24 fighters on each.

    Nor is it clear whether the Rafale and Super Hornet, which are designed and built to be launched from aircraft carriers with catapults, are capable of “ski-jump” launches from the two Indian carriers, neither of which have catapults.

    Without catapults, those aircraft will have to be launched with significantly lower payloads of fuel and weapons, especially in India’s warmer environment. The navy has done no studies of the compromises that will be necessary.

    With the navy short of answers, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has ordered ADA to continue developing the Naval Tejas.

    Balaji confirmed to Business Standard that the Naval Tejas development was under way. “ADA believes that we have a good configuration for the LCA Navy Mark II, which will meet the operational requirements of a deck-based aircraft, as specified in the cabinet clearance in December 2009.”

    The navy, however, is now demanding far greater capability from the Tejas than what the cabinet clearance of 2009 had specified. At a defence ministry meeting in August, the admirals cited a significantly more challenging operational environment.

    Meanwhile the two-phase upgrade of the Naval Tejas continues. In Phase-1, the IAF version of the Tejas Mark I was modified, at a cost of Rs 1,729 crore, into the Naval Tejas Mark I. This involved measures like strengthening the undercarriage for landings on carrier decks and modifying the cockpit to increase pilot visibility. Yet, the Mark I remained predominantly an air force, rather than a naval, fighter.

    ADA intends to customise it into a naval fighter in Phase-2, which has been allocated Rs 1,921 crore. Like the IAF version, this will involve comprehensive redesign, including replacing the current General Electric F-404IN engine with a more powerful F-414 engine. But other important changes will optimise the fighter for carrier operations. Weight will be shaved off the undercarriage, which will be accommodated inside a lengthened wing, freeing up space in the centre fuselage for an additional 700 litres of fuel. This will give the fighter an extra 20-25 minutes of flight endurance. In addition, the tail hook will be engineered afresh.

    The ADA chief has argued forcefully in the defence ministry, and Parrikar has accepted the need for a step-by-step approach to naval fighter design, rather than attempting a huge technology jump by designing a fifth-generation Naval AMCA. They believe that first designing an optimised naval fighter --- the Naval Tejas Mark II --- would develop capabilities realistically and incrementally.


    Fleet air experts note the US Navy’s struggle to build the carrier deck version of the Joint Strike Fighter, called the F-35C. Although America has built carrier deck aircraft for a century, the technology leap attempted in the F-35 created issues that are still being resolved.
     
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  11. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    IN chief also mentioned the continuation of development during the press meet.
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The IAF's offer for the LCA was for the Mk2 version. 200 aircraft with a private company followed by AMCA offer. No one bit it for obvious reasons, they don't want the risk or the have the experience to go solo.

    But I agree that the Mk2 program is an eyewash. HAL has been tricking GoI and IAF for years now.

    Total new aircraft requirement is 400 for IAF in the short term, that's 10 years, and 350 more in the long term, 25 years, with 175 of those 350 in just 15 years. So IAF actually has to prepare for an actual requirement of 575 aircraft now, so they can get them all in 15 years. And this is not counting an expansion of the IAF.

    My personal prediction: By 2027:
    Rafale
    Merignac: 54 jets
    Nagpur: 72 jets at 12 per year
    Potential for 36 more from Merignac.

    Total = 162

    Single engine fighter:
    Not more than 80 jets by 2027.

    LCA Mk1A:
    Will be a well planned project if we get to 60 jets by 2027.

    We will still be short by 100 jets, so a squadron or two of DARIN II Jaguars may continue to fly. Parrikar said IAF may not be able to achieve 42 squadrons by 2027, they are not expecting more than 38 squadrons to be ready by then.
     
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  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Reliance is not going to do anything, everything will be controlled by Dassault.
     
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  14. rockstar

    rockstar 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Why cant we use Mayavi EW systems in LCA?

    What EW system we are using in Su-MKI?
     
  15. Kane0610

    Kane0610 FULL MEMBER

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    SU 30MKI uses ELTA 8222 EW system.

    Back in early Jan 2015, there were reports of EW system developed by DRDO tested on Tejas PV-1. I think it was Mayavi. However, if we look at the flight news on ADA website, PV-1 has just seen three flight tests since 2015 Jan. After which it was never flown till date. It might be a case where the tests resulted in the system going back to the drawing board.

    http://www.airforce-technology.com/...ves-advanced-electronic-warfare-suite-4486639
     
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