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LCA Tejas Multirole Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Dark_Prince, Apr 14, 2010.

  1. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Is Thales offer for RBE2 based AESA radar for Tejas-Mk1A a threat to Elta’s ELM-2052 chances in India? Published October 17, 2017 SOURCE: THOMAS D’SOUZA / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

    [​IMG]

    Israeli company, Elta after winning contract, to supply 61 Elta’s ELM-2052 AESA radar to be equipped on DARIN-3 upgraded Jaguar fleet of Indian Air Force was largely seen as in the driver seat before India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) invited overseas bids for 80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars and electronic warfare (EW) suites to be equipped on soon to be developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk 1A variant. Request for quotation (RFQ) for 80 AESA radars issued last December had asked for fast delivery scheduled since the project is expected to go alive by 2019 followed by production by 2021. Israel Aerospace Industries/Elta (Israel), Raytheon (United States), Rosoboronexport (Russia), Saab (Sweden), and Thales (France) were some of the companies which received RFQ but tight delivery schedule meant not all agreed to participate. ELM-2052 AESA radar could have been an easy pick for HAL and IAF which have tested and successfully integrated them into Jaguar Strike aircrafts but some media reports hint that IAF was rather impressed by Thales proposed scaled down version of RBE2 AESA radar which is equipped on Dassault Rafale which India will start getting from 2019 on wards. Recent Press Release issued by Thales confirms that RBE2 derived Aesa radar was successfully developed and tested, all in a span of four months and test conducted in the month of July-August on a Test-bed aircraft meet specific requirements set by HAL in their RFQ for the Tejas Mk1A fighter jet. Unconfirmed reports hint that IAF wanted to equip Tejas Mk-1A, which will be India’s Point Air Defence Interceptor aircraft to be equipped with AESA radar which can dominate in air-superiority missions thus Elta’s ELM-2052 was sidelined for some reason even though it was already equipped with Jaguar ground attack aircraft fleet. RBE2 derived AESA radar for Tejas Mk-1A might find support from Indian Air Force since it will offer increased detection and track capabilities when compared to Elta’s ELM-2052. Raven ES-05 AESA Radar which has been offered to India with Gripen E to meet India’s Single-engined fighter requirement also has been offered to India to be equipped with Tejas Mk-1A. There is no confirmation if Raytheon has responded to HAL’s RFQ but at least on the paper, RBE2 derived AESA radar and Raven ES-05 AESA Radar, which is on offer are far superior in performance when compared to Elta’s ELM-2052 performance. Elta, a few years back had offered to co-develop with HAL, a new enhanced AESA radar based on ELM-2052 which was rejected. India’s locally developed UTTAM Aesa Radar is currently been prepared for integration and testing trials from LCA-Tejas and may see service with Tejas MK-2 when it is ready for production.

    http://idrw.org/is-thales-offer-for-rbe2-based-aesa-radar-for-tejas-mk1a-a-threat-to-eltas-elm-2052-chances-in-india/#more-151064 .
     
  2. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    Is there any ToT involved? Didn't ELTA offer ToT?
     
  3. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Why do we have to scale down Rbe AESA ?

    Air cooled .. .?

    Wt constraints .?
     
  4. Vijyes

    Vijyes BANNED BANNED

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    AESA can be scaled down by reducing the number of T/R (transmission/receiver) modules. The AESA can be enlarged in case of AWACS planes to be much bigger too by increasing T/R modules.

    The scaling down is not a correct term to use in absolute sense as theoretically there is no fixed size of AESA. It is relative to something that scaling is done. RBE2AA was designed for Rafale/Mirage 2000 and relative to it, it is scaled down. This is done as Tejas is a small aircraft and has small radome relatively.

    We can get a radar as powerful as RBE2AA in Tejas too but that will require GaN module. (But, then RBE2AA with GaN will be enhanced too).

    The AESA on AWA&CS planes have extremely powerful AESA that can detect F22 from several hundred kilometres itself. But a small AESA in fighter planes will have lower ability. But, the small size of these aircrafts will also mean it will be difficult for opponents to spot it. Opponents on the other hand can spot AWA&CS plane from 400-500km too
     
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  5. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I can't forget about someone repeatedly posting Tejas radome size is in fact bigger than Rafale .

    But the space available between radome and cockpit is less.
    Sancho had posted picture sometime before , as to why IRST is difficult to be integrated .
     
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  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    IFR was not done so far I think, but the issuse of Derby and Python V integration could keep delaying FOC, especially if (god forbid), Python V gets cancelled again and ASRAAM will be added. We also don't have open infos on the performance of the radar now, after the nose was changed and if the recent Derby tests were fully guided by the radar. Another FOC issue afaik is the lack of supersonic fuel tanks, which also needs testing and certification.
    Wrt MK1A, HAL proposed to deliver the FOC squadron in MK1A standard, if that standard is fixed and ordered soon enough. But if foreign OEMs are still replying to the radar / EW tender, they issued late last year, there doesn't seem to be much improvement on the MK1A so far.

    Personally, I don't even think it's a good idea to have that squad in MK1A standard, since it will be raised at Sulur air Base as well, just as the IOC squad, so why would IAF want 2 squads of LCA with different radar and EW capabilities? It's better to field it and latter upgrade both squads at once, either to MK1A or directly to MK2 standard.
     
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  7. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Because the nose diameter of LCA is smaller to integrate the full scale RBE 2 from the Rafale.
    We have seen some infos from Uttam AESA posted here, which showed that it has a T/R module count of around 700. RBE 2 AESA in Rafale is estimated between 800 and 1000.
    As @Vijyes correctly said, to counter the smaller size, one could use more powerful GaN modules, like Saab offered in their proposal for MK1A (probably dependent on Gripen selection though), or increase the power output, but that has other issues =>

    http://indiandefence.com/threads/rafale-news.1318/#post-10255
     
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  8. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I ve checked but got only forum replies as source...

    RBE antenna siz 600mm

    MMR antenna size 650mm
     
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  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Because you will only find estimates and vague figures about the T/R module numbers. Even Dassault for example states "compromising" 1000 modules for Rafale, which basically means close to 1000, not necessarily 1000. Also Rafales nose diameter is limited by FSO, which is Full integrated behind the radar and takes off space, so less than 1000 is more likely.
    But the different radar diameter also makes it difficult for us to know how capable the EL 2052 for example is. It was developed for F16 sized radars if I'm not mistaken, but was modified and offered for Kfir, Kai T50, our Jags, LCA and even Gripen IN in the early MMRCA years. All different diameters and therfor different performances.
     
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  10. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Scale down = For the back end. Rafale has more space at the back, LCA doesn't.

    LCA has a small space for liquid cooling.
     
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  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    The journey to MK1A

    Milestones so far:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Source: CAG report 2015

    Questions over Tejas’ induction
    DECEMBER 01, 2007

    With empirical data indicating that indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, in its present form, will not be able to meet the Air Staff Requirements (ASRs), the Indian Air Force (IAF) has raised serious questions over the future of the aircraft’s long term induction into the squadron service...

    ...
    Having been unable to come up with an engine even after 17 years, the GTRE since 2005 been in talks with the Russians and the French, attempting to decide who among the two engine houses will help them bring out an engine. A co-developed engine will optimistically take four years to fructify...

    ...But sources say that that neither the GE F404 nor the Kaveri will be able to provide the kind of thrust that can power the Tejas to ASR standards. Foreseeing this, the IAF had suggested that the Tejas could be powered by the more powerful GE F414 engine.

    The ADA set up an internal committee to study the possibility, but since using the heavier and larger F414 would need modifications on the Tejas’ air intakes and the fuselage, further delaying the delayed project, the suggestion was ignored.

    Official sources said that besides lack of installed thrust there were also niggles with the Tejas airframe, which would come up when the ADA expanded the Tejas’ flight test programme and went in for high angle of attack/ high alpha testing, very low speed trails, carefree manoeuvres and other combat related flying. “The Tejas requires aerodynamic fixes.” But this could further increase its all up weight...

    Source:
    http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...over-Tejasrsquo-induction/article14886084.ece


    Kaveri engine failure:
    [​IMG]

    Overweight problem:
    [​IMG]
    Source: CAG report 2015


    LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat
    June 06, 2008


    ...In what could be a deathblow to the indigenous fighter programme, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded that the first lot of planes to enter service will not only carry a limited load of weapons but will also have a restricted ‘angle of attack’, making them unsuitable for aerial combat...
    ...With the IAF not willing to introduce any more such ‘limited’ fighters, plans are afoot to give the LCA a new engine with greater thrust. However, this would also require a complete redesign. “To put in a new engine, like the GE 414, with this capability, the existing structure of the aircraft will have to be modified. This would need design changes that will take another 3-4 years,” the source said...

    Source: http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/lca-needs-new-engine-to-be-worthy-of-combat/319117/


    IAF insists on changes to Tejas
    DEC 05, 2008

    The Indian Air Force has categorically ruled out placing further orders for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, with its current configuration...

    ...Recently, the IAF even made a few suggestions on improvements in Tejas Mk2, including a more powerful engine, optimisation of the aerodynamic qualities and weight of the aircraft and “dropping and replacing” certain parts to take care of obsolescence.

    Tejas Mk2 will take a few years to fructify, the biggest challenge being choosing a new powerful engine. In December, the ADA is expected to issue a request for proposal to General Electric for its GE F414 and to the European consortium Eurojet for EJ200, in a bid to procure 99 engines (with an option to buy another 49).

    Once the engine is chosen, fuselage modifications will have to be carried out, flight tests started and evaluation undertaken...

    Source:
    http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/IAF-insists-on-changes-to-Tejas/article15355169.ece


    Part 1/3
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Beyond LCA Tejas Mk 1
    By Air Marshal (Retd) B.K. Pandey
    1 / 2014


    After 30 years of effort by the Indian aerospace industry, an investment of Rs. 25,000 crore by the government and constant hounding by the Indian Air Force (IAF), the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas has been able to achieve initial operational clearance (IOC) on December 20, 2013. The platform has been designated as the Mk 1. However, a notable and somewhat tragic deficiency that to an extent subdues the glory of this achievement, is the failure on the part of the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), an agency under the Defence Research and Development Organisation
    (DRDO), to successfully design and produce the indigenous Kaveri engine for LCA Tejas Mk 1 despite over two decades of effort and staggering levels of investment. In the case of the LCA Mk 1 fleet, the IAF will have no option but to continue to depend on a foreign source for the upkeep and replacement of the power plant which represents the heart of the aircraft...
    ...It is obvious from the above that the IAF is not contemplating on acquiring more than the initial batch of 40 LCA Tejas Mk 1 for which orders have already been placed with HAL. Instead, as per reports, the IAF plans to induct 80 (four squadrons) of the LCA Tejas Mk 2...

    Source:
    http://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=1376


    First Tejas rolls out, but production line at mercy of further orders
    2nd Oct 14


    ...However, IAF caution stands in the way of HAL’s enthusiasm. The IAF has ordered just 40 Tejas fighters --- 20 built to current specifications, and another 20 built to a higher set of specifications that will be realised when the Tejas achieves “final operational clearance” (FOC), which is likely only by mid-2015.

    Yet, without additional orders, the Tejas production line will shut down 3-4 years from now, when HAL would have delivered the 40 Tejas on order. The IAF says further orders will be placed only for the advanced Tejas Mark II.

    Developing this will take some 5-7 years, since it involves extensive redesign.
    The General Electric F-404 engine that currently powers the Tejas will give way to a larger F-414 engine, requiring major re-engineering. The systems and avionics will also be redesigned; and then a test flight programme conducted.

    While this happens, keeping the Tejas production line alive and benefiting from the economies of scale manufacture, would require additional IAF orders for the Tejas Mark I, or large export orders...

    Source:
    http://ajaishukla.blogspot.de/2014/10/first-tejas-fighter-of-iafs-first-tejas.html?m=1


    Tejas Mark-I fails to meet IAF criteria, has 53 shortfalls: CAG
    May 8, 2015


    Listing the shortcomings...
    ...The authority also added that the Mark-I’s shortcomings (increased weight, reduced internal fuel capacity, non-compliance of fuel system protection, pilot protection from front, reduced speed) were expected to be corrected in the Mark-II model.

    Source:
    http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...iaf-criteria-has-53-shortfalls-cag/77896.html


    What are the shortcomings that have been reported in India's LCA Tejas Mk-I?
    Jul 31, 2015

    In a written reply in the Lok Sabha, Parrikar said that the government has sanctioned project for development of LCA Mk-II in 2009. "Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is the prime agency for development of LCA Mk-II with public and private partnerships," he said.

    According to Parrikar, the following shortcomings have been reported in LCA Tejas Mk-I:

    - Absence of Internal Jammer affecting survivability

    - Aircraft performance shortfalls.

    - Maintainability issues

    Source:
    https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ndias-lca-tejas-mk-i/articleshow/48295273.cms


    With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1-A
    Aug 12, 2015


    ...Senior HAL and ADA officials agree the Tejas Mark II is unlikely to enter production till 2023-24...
    ...HAL, therefore, wants the IAF to buy 80 Tejas Mark I-A to keep the production line occupied from 2020 to 2023-24...
    ...HAL sees a four-year gap between the last Tejas Mark I and the first Tejas Mark II as seriously disruptive. Building 80 Tejas Mark I-A is a way of bridging that gap...

    Source:
    http://wap.business-standard.com/ar...rce-to-buy-tejas-mark-1-a-115081201951_1.html


    Revealed: The LCA Tejas That The IAF Has Chosen
    Jun 27 2016


    ...The known updates are clear. The Mk.1A will be mid-air refuellable, sport an updated internal Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) — likely in-house kit from the DRDO’s DARE laboratory — an external Self Protection Jammer (SPJ) pod to enhance survivability and an AESA Radar, both of which the Tejas programme is scouting international suppliers for. The IAF has also stipulated that the Tejas Mk.1A needs to be able to fire different types of BVR and close combat air to air missiles...

    ...The meat of the Mk.1A will be a slew of major improvements in the LCA’s squadron-level maintainability contours. It is difficult to overstate just how much importance the IAF has placed on ramped up no-nonsense maintainability, more than a milestone away from the admittedly unwieldy maintenance architecture built into the Mk.1. On maintainability alone, the Tejas Mk.1A will have the 43 improvements out of 57 planned on the bigger, more powerful Tejas Mk.2:

    ...Improvements planned on the Tejas Mk.2, apart from the more powerful engine and attendant expansion of op envelope, include new sensors, new indigenous actuators, and a new indigenous avionics architecture. The variant will also involve the removal of 250 kg in ballast weight, a further half ton weight reduction through revised design factors, performance improvements by “aerodynamic refinements of geometry”, an internal electronic warfare suite, a brand new suite of indigenous avionics systems currently under development, a new digital flight control computer, OBOGS for mission endurance...

    Source:
    https://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/06/revealed-the-lca-tejas-that-the-iaf-has-chosen.html

    Part 2/3
     
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  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    ADA LCA specs 2008
    [​IMG]
    Note:
    - Mach 1.4 achieved
    - overweight but payload estimated at over 4t
    - G-Limit +9 / -3.5


    ADA LCA specs 2011
    [​IMG]
    Note:
    - Mach 1.6 achieved
    - payload reduced
    - G-Limit +9 / -3.5


    ADA LCA MK1 specs 2015
    [​IMG]
    Note:
    - Reduced G-limits


    ADA LCA MK2 specs 2015
    [​IMG]
    Note:
    - New cockpit displays, AESA radar, improved EW and maintainability, all part of LCA MK1A now
    - G-limit back at initial design goal of +9 / -3.5


    HAL Managing Director Suvarna Raju:

    ...P in the LCA-I P stands for prototype, but once accepted by IAF, it could be designated LCA-MkI-A...
    ...The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package will also add some 50 kilos of more weight, but then, Mr Raju explained, the capability of the aircraft increases significantly, offsetting the disadvantage of a smaller engine.

    The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos...

    Source:
    http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories3767_HAL_developing_LCA-1P_with_AESA_Radar.htm

    Part 3/3
     
  14. Blackjay

    Blackjay Developers Guild IDF NewBie

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    ^^^Very well researched @Sancho ....
    Hat's off, bro...
    :award:
     
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  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Thx mate, collected several info's and sources on the MK1A since I'm back and wanted to create a single reference post, that has most of the important info's in it.
    But it was interesting to go back in history too and read up some of the old articles.
     
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