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Light Stealth Aircraft (LSA) - Concept Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by randomradio, Mar 19, 2016.

  1. Flyboy!

    Flyboy! Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Elon musk of Indian aerospace. Kudos to you if all goes as planned
     
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  2. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Well expertise in aerodynamics and a fighter pilot is a deadly and dangerous combination. :butcher:

    Am I right to believe that based on information of combination of enemy aircraft and our aircraft the tactics of air combat are devised and more so during DACT? I mean a MiG 29 pilot knows what to do and what not to do when facing a F16 and it continuously gets evolved.
     
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  3. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Yes, It is so. Many people tend to associate lift with just wing area and wing loading. They are nuts to say the least. This concept of wing loading is as old as WW2 when we had very low thrust piston engines and the aircraft used to have straight wings with no wing-body blending. In present world, the whole aircraft can be created as a lifting body by using wing-body blending and the wing loading must be replaced by-lift per unit area. Mig-29 has higher wingloading and yet it out does most fighters of the world.
    Let us take an example of LSA and Rafale. LSA has 50* sweep and its CHINE gives it 50% additional lift. So Cos50=0.642 and 150% of it is 0.964. Rafale has 48* sweep and its CCC also does the same job so Cos48*=0.669 and 150% of it is 1.00. This means that even with 48* sweep, Rafale produces same lift as an unswept wing aircraft.
    So is LSA inferior to Rafale? NOO. LSA is superior to Rafale in aerodynamics because the 50* sweep and very optimised CHINE gives LSA an advantage in drag at higher alpha and low speeds besides being superior in RCS control. The biggest strength of LSA is that at high subsonic & supersonic speeds, it will beat Rafale as the CHINEs will cut in to augment the lift while the CCC of Rafale will end up destroying lift on the wings due to interference of canard shock waves with wing vortices.
    At low subsonic speeds both aircraft will have same drag polar as CCC will carry a negative load just like the tail plane of positively stable LSA. But remember, LSA will have 3D TVC to out do Rafale.
     
  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    @mods, is it possible to move all these posts about LSA on this thread to LSA thread? Also from F-16, Gripen thread.
     
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    :D I said the same thing about him quite sometime ago.
     
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  6. ranadd

    ranadd 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I was a fan of this "project". Classic Indian Juggad.

    But seeing Aero India is ongoing and you did not make the effort of even putting up a stall for the concept, makes me a believer that this is not a paper plane but pure vaporware.
     
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Lol. Why? His company has to get registered first.

    Airshow is not what you think it is.
     
  8. ranadd

    ranadd 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Please, explain to me what an Airshow is.
     
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    You need a company first.

    Then you need a product, not something that you want to keep a secret. LSA is a secret design. What's the point showing it off in an air show? Vstol has no benefit participating in an air show. HAL showed off a model of the FGFA 'after' the first contract was signed, not before. And all the way in 2013, not even in 2011.

    Air shows are designed to attract international attention to your product, that's not the purpose of LSA... yet. It has no benefit if you want to sell an Indian product to Indian forces. You can approach them directly.

    Let LSA fly first, then we will talk of air shows. Normally, a design like the LSA is hidden until first flight, but we are talking about it in forums because it is a one-man show right now. If Vstol was already part of a large company, we wouldn't be having a discussion about LSA at all.
     
  10. Flyboy!

    Flyboy! Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    If we can create a fighter jet , I'm sure once the kaveri gets going , we can have our own engine tech , which means we can have our own military transport aircrafts and maybe our own civilian aircrafts. Your company could be huge @vstol jockey . The biggest issue will be politics and filthy bureaucracy.
     
  11. ranadd

    ranadd 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Since, I have registered few companies, do you know how much time is it required to get tax registration numbers and such?

    When was this thread created? Why was a company not created so far? Heck I maintained 2 in my name for half a decade with no operations on it whatsoever. Why did I do that?. There was a scope for both the routes. But we went a different way.

    So if this was a serious endeavor, was a business model created? decided upon? Or was it just a one way show?

    All dreamers are not achievers for this exact reason.

    Since I belong to a manufacturing/design stream, I would bet everything I have that timelines or the methodology mentioned here is simple not feasible. Seeing subsystems alone and Integrating them are two different beasts.

    I don't want to wish luck either to the person who is claiming this. I would like him or others to waste time on this.

    Its not about being impossible or the zeal to accomplish the goal. From an engineering standpoint, the project may be feasible. But definitely not the timeline or the methodology given here. Please do not fall for the lines like a CAD simulation would suffice. If that was the case, one of the most coveted Indian black project would have been in active deployment. It is still in design phases. And the project are being handled by a group of gifted engineers.

    Several of my past project timelines would have compressed like crazy if CAD simulations would suffice.

    The OP sounds knowledgeable as a end user. No doubts. But he simply has no clue what he is doing. And no time wont prove me wrong. Very very very sure about that.​
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Unlike you, he needs permission from the govt to make weapons. You can't just setup a defence company overnight. And you can't just keep ghost companies either. There are strict rules and regulations about defence industries in India. Why do you think private sector has not been involved as much in defence? It's not as easy as you think.

    I explained why air shows are not useful for Vstol. His coursemates are among the top brass today, he only has to make phone calls, no point going to air shows. He is also in touch with Parrikar himself. If he wants to sell the LSA to Europe, then let's think about Paris and Farnborough air shows. Participation in an Indian air show is only to announce that we are ready for exports or for showing off, it has no other use.

    Btw, systems and subsystems are already integrated. Vstol is only buying them from a reputed company. His main job is to qualify the aircraft itself.

    For everything else, just ask @vstol jockey, why speak to him indirectly through me?
     
  13. ranadd

    ranadd 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    And when did he say he was manufacturing anything? Isn't that the point of this project?

    He is basically a designer/prime integrator. Please, have some grasp in how PMO's work and stop wasting my time in replying to your posts.

    Laughing at the first bold parts.

    It is not. very much not. for the second bold part.
     
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It doesn't matter. It's still a defence company and has to go through a large number of hurdles.

    You have to show money first (not as a bribe, as a serious investor).

    No chance you are Indian or living in India, one of the two. The minute you said this I knew you are not from here.

    You can't get anything big done without contacts.

    It is. And it has been done before. Read post 1383.

    Typical. "I can't do it, so you can't either." NASA takes 60 months to finish a launch project. ISRO takes 18 months.

    Unlike the days of the M-2000, avionics today are built around a standard and have become plug and play if you buy everything from one vendor. ADA has asked vendors to give the entire radar and EW suite as one integrated unit for the LCA.

    The new mantra is plug and play.
    http://www.aviationtoday.com/2004/10/01/integrated-avionics-plug-play/

    What used to take years have been reduced to mere months. Saab started Gripen-E development work in 2013 and had their first pre-production delivery in 2016. They will deliver the first production model with IOC in 2019. With all new avionics.

    Sell your bridge to someone who you can fool.
     
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  15. ranadd

    ranadd 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    No. The license required here is different for a defense company. As you say, this is India. There are ways around it. Let me ask you something, Tata ELXSI is a defense company or not? Ask someone who worked there before during 2000s, from when they were involved with defense products. I am not sure if it was Mumbai or Pune though.

    Laughing at the part on I am not Indian. Say such stuff when you have nothing to say worthwhile, I laugh because, I know the ground reality.

    For the rest of your posts regarding plug and play and all..

    You do NOT have any idea or experience in system Integration. It is not like building up a PC. I assure you that. I am quite familiar with some of the equipment you proudly call Indian Tech feat.

    I am sorry mate, I tried. Talk to some engineers and understand how difficult this idea of LSA is. No not software engineers. Engineers in heavy engineering.

    To this moment, I have not said this idea is B$. Simply this is not easy as it is mentioned here, It will not be done in whatever timeline or manner the OP says and that OP does not have the vision to do it so. Just because he wants to or dreaming big does not translate the task being easy.

    The part where he did not even register a system design company and put some brochures out during the premier Air show shows how skewed his vision is.

    Ok fine, he will do it next time. No, he is too late. Even in Indian defense scenario.
     

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