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Macron welcomes his Russian counterpart Putin in Versailles

Discussion in 'Europe & Russia' started by Picdelamirand-oil, May 29, 2017.

  1. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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  2. Grevion

    Grevion Professional Think Troll ELITE MEMBER

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    :mrgreen: French diplomacy.
    :hula
     
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  3. Fox

    Fox Supreme Overlord FULL MEMBER

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    Some Europeans are in favor of stronger ties with Russia:whistle:. Some also see American policies, European reluctance to diverge and Russian belligerence as the culprit behind the downgrading of relations.

    Some Europeans hope recent changes in European and American politics will spurn action on improving the relations.

    French diplomacy or not, talking to the Russians isn't a bad idea. They want to be treated as equals in Europe. Why not engage them as such?
     
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  4. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Macron :

    Poutine :

     
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  5. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Ask people East of the Berlin Wall what they think.
     
  6. Fox

    Fox Supreme Overlord FULL MEMBER

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    You know, up until Russia's adventure into Ukraine we actually had very positive relations with them. They were one of our largest trading partners, we invested much in each others agriculture and energy infrastructure.

    [​IMG]

    Our militaries trained together and we even had a visa-free travel agreement with Russia.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Under Putin's leadership ties have suffered, but like Europe's ties with the Americans starting out rocky under their new leadership, Putin wont be around forever and fostering better ties with Russia can help build for long-term partnerships while also alleviating short term animosity.

    I've never been as sanguine on Euro-Russian ties as many others on defence forums like this, or around European streets and I'm fully supportive of increased ties with Russia, the US, China and other critical partners world wide. It's best for Norway and at the end of the day that's what matters most to me.
     
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  7. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I was referring to those East of the Berlin Wall and a little further South.
     
  8. Fox

    Fox Supreme Overlord FULL MEMBER

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    Of course you were, but my point, as it also relates to France, is that Europe is not monolithic and some countries do have stronger ties with Russia and want stronger ties, irrespective of the Soviet history in Eastern Europe. While the Eastern European countries have had bad historical (and in many respects current too) experiences with Russia, that isn't necessarily the case for a country like France or Norway or even the UK. Western European countries have been more willing to engage Russia as a bilateral partner then have the Eastern Europeans who are weary of any overtures from either side towards one another.

    France trying to improve its relations with Russia isn't guaranteed to draw a parallel with either Norway's example of deep cooperation, but it's also not guaranteed to meet with the same fate as Poland or Ukraine.

    Caution is still appropriate and no side is rushing to absolve one another's misgivings or transgressions, but talking and identifying points of cooperation and points of divergence is a first step. Let's also remember that France has often been an outlier in Europe. While others put a crimp on Iraq during Saddam's reign or Libya under Gaddafi, France was always willing to provide support, sometimes clandestinely. With Russia after the Soviet collapse, France's ties have been warm as well, though again, there have been points of divergence.

    Remember this saga? At a time when much of Europe was very leery about Putin's reemergence it was almost unthinkable, but France has a history of that and a history of not-particularly-bad ties with Russia, like Norway.

    [​IMG]

    While reminding everyone of the fate of Eastern Europe is prudent and asking us to respect their thoughts is respectable, it's also not wholly applicable to Western European countries like France and Norway who have stronger ties with Russia historically and are keen to rekindle their relationship, especially as post-Ukraine sanctions have harmed either side.

    Even during times when Eastern Europe was skeptical or fearful, both Norway and France maintained strong ties with Russia. We don't feel the same towards them as a Latvia or Poland or Ukraine does. We have different experiences that have helped shape our country's perceptions and cooperation with Russia.
     
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  9. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Of course you don't, you didn't experience reality like Poland and Latvia. We'll see how that works out for you.
     
  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    K sozahleniyu eikh nikhto nravyatsa! :p
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
  11. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    What do they think?

    They had one of the best welfare states till as such time the 'freebies' made the system defunct. Happens in every system where assured employment and food is provided.
     
  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    You mean to say, you experienced the 'realities'? Interesting!

    Please elaborate.

    On topic. Putin visiting a leader where they indirectly helped the leader get elected? ;)
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
  13. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I mean to say that Poland and other Eastern European states did, and their opinion differs greatly.

    Did they?
     
  14. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    It had happened quite a while before the system collapsed. Record number of hospital beds per capita, but very little healthcare.
     
  15. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/r...french-presidential-candidate/article/2621111


    A reverse, in aftermath of US 'leakage', is a probability - Support the candidate you do not want and then selectively 'leak' the reverse. Perfect hook, line and sinker - in the words of Len Deighton.

    Makes a 'Russian' sense!

    Read in conjunction with :

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...og-issues-warning-russian-news-report-claims/

    http://www.politico.eu/article/fren...-hacking-report-vladimir-putin-marine-le-pen/

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-cyber-idUSKBN15S192

    Reminds me of The Stone Leopard by Colin Forbes. Only the time, the way and the process has been updated :D
     

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