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Midair Refuellers Tender - Airbus A330 MRTT Vs Boeing KC-46 Vs IL-78

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Feb 26, 2017.

  1. kaku

    kaku Major Technical Analyst

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    [​IMG]

    Here is the layout of E-737 AEW & C.

    I am assuming DRDO's A330 AEW & CS interior also look something like this. I dont know where is the space left for providing refueling?

    Also adding layout of B767, as A330 is more similar to that instead of B-737.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    In aft section. That is again what the premise holds.

    @vstol jockey has some ideas
     
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  3. kaku

    kaku Major Technical Analyst

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    Then, I think we should choose A380 instead of A330. But then this aircraft only able to fly and land from international airports, lol.
     
  4. X_Killer

    X_Killer Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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  5. X_Killer

    X_Killer Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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  6. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    we don't need a rotodome anymore. We can have similar antenna arrangement as Ospray radar on the sides of the fuselage to give 360* coverage. A330 has huge amount of space inside it and it can very easily do the job of a tanker and AWAC.
     
  7. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    I seriously doubt the IAF would have 100% of their AWACS fleet in an AAR role BUT there is scope for some overlap perhaps.

    IMHO the market for the AWACS (India) is 15 units by 2035, the intial order is 8 units itself by 2030.

    There is perhaps scope to have 7 of these capable of IFR (if it is even technically possible) but not ALL because an AWACS role is not always going to overlap with an AAR.


    Likely the idea has been borne out of the fact that the DRDO has already selected the A330 for the AWACS (INDIA) role and the A330 MRTT has been selected by the IAF TWICE for their AAR role.

    Of course, with the IAF re-tendering the AAR deal it would either have to scrap it in lieu of a govt-govt deal for the A330s or hope the A330 MRTT is selected again, this may be more difficult with the KC-46 now in the fray.

    That said, I am rather skeptical of this idea- the power requirements are so immense for the AWACS (INDIA) that DRDO is working with Airbus to fit huge APU internally and with all of the structural changes that would be required to mount a radome the AUW of the AWACS- configured A330 is going to be pretty close to the MTOW especially if fuelled for a long mission.



    It's better to have specialised assets not jacks of all trades, masters of none.
     
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  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    First of all, modern tankers that are based on civil airliners, doesn't carry fuel tanks in the cabin / cargo hold anymore. The fuel is stored completely in the wing and fuselage tanks, so you don't need to split the cabin space for that.

    Secondly, the problem with this idea is, that an AWACS mission takes a long time and that you can't use this aircraft for tanker missions in the mean time. If you have 6 AWACS for example, at least 2 will be on patrol, while 3 more will be kept available for rotations of the aircraft and it's crews. Which leaves not much aircrafts left to do tanker missions. And even within this rotation, you need tanker missions to extend the range and endurance of the AWACS aircrafts on patrol, which leaves no aircrafts for fighter refuelling at all.

    You also a have to keep in mind that the AWACS missions and CAP fighter missions are not necessarily in the same area. The fighters will operate closet to the border, while the AWACS will be used from save distances. So it requires dedictated aircrafts to fly back and forth to refuel them all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
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  9. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    AWACS have to stay AWACS and tankers have to stay tankers. You can't combine them, it's a huge waste of resources.

    You spent $500-600M on an AWACS-tanker, but you forget that aircraft come with service life. Every hour you use this AWACS as a tanker that's one less hour where it is not performing based on what it costs.

    And what are you going to do if something breaks down? If the radar breaks down, then the tanker is also on the ground. And AWACS spend a lot more time on the ground than regular tankers, maintenance, regular upgrades etc. This means it can't perform its tanker role as well.

    In case the A330 AWACS can carry more fuel, then it is better to use that extra fuel to get more on station time. If there's extra space in the aircraft, then use that to increase the crew facilities so you can carry more people for shift rotation. More crew and more fuel only increases the capability of the aircraft. Transferring that extra fuel into fighter jets is a waste of resources.

    For special missions if both AWACS and tankers are necessary, then just bring a tanker along. It's cheaper in fact. That second hand A330 for tanker operations is a much better idea than AWACS-tanker.
     
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  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Have you flown any of these kind of birds? Do you know the amount of redundancy in systems that they have? These aircraft can fly with a large number of systems unserviceable and it is covered under CDL & MEL.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I was referring to radar electronics and ESM breaking down or being upgraded.
     
  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    OK. I misunderstood it. But you see a dual role aircraft will always remain fit for at least one role compared to a single role which will become unserviceable the moment you have some issue regarding equipment.
     
  13. HELLBENT

    HELLBENT FULL MEMBER

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    just wanted to ask................... those IL78 which got damaged during hail storm

    are they down for good or can they be brought online again ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Hailstorm damage can be fixed.
     
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  15. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It's a waste to fly an AWACS for tanker role in case the radar stops working.

    There is too much of a difference in investment needed for the two roles. Like buying a A380 for 100 people.
     

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