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Ministry of Defence scraps $500-million Israeli missile deal, wants DRDO to make in India

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Butter Chicken, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Stop posting bullshit , have told you a number of times.

    Complete TOT of Konkurs - M, a Tandem Warhead ATGM, was achieved with BDL.
    BDL failed to meet the production rate, as a result, additional stocks have been purchased as stop gap measure since BDL FAILED

    And where is the Nag? You want IA to play with slingshots against tanks and concrete bunkers?

    If you do not know something, silence is best. And if you know something that is not in public domain, it remains the best. In this case, you do not know.
     
    Gessler, Agent_47 and zebra7 like this.
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Milan was supposed to be replaced by SPIKE, so yes all IA can do, is holding on to old or outdated equipment, just as IAF with Mig 21s, IN with Russian mine layers, which all are effected by cancelled or delayed tenders.
     
  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Milan 2T is hardly outdated. Neither is Konkurs M.

    The problem is in the airborne aspects. HELINA is far from developed and the GoI as usual balked at PARS 3 procurement. So, no missiles for RUDRAs in the IA yet.
     
  4. Hindustani78

    Hindustani78 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    According to Indian express
    In 2009, the MoD accepted the requirement of buying 321 ATGM launchers and 8,356 missiles,

    According to Hindustan Times.
    In 2014, Indian Army equipped more than 400 units ( infantry and mechanised units) with the third-generation ATGM systems. with the third-generation ATGM systems.

    The decision not to buy the missiles comes around 10 months after the defence ministry appointed a committee, headed by a major general, to examine various aspects related to the deal.

    Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MPATGM) for the Indian Army is fourth Generation System.

    DRDO Scientists do work for the security and safety of the Indian nation and put thier best services for the National Security.
     
    Shekhar Singh, zebra7 and Bloom 17 like this.
  5. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    ISA ibne Maryam , taurat , injeel ... Interesting .all Arabic or more specifically Islamic terms .And he wants to the Jews to accept Islamic terms and hence Islam , I reckon . Nicely camouflaged by prefacing it with the Vedas .is this guy something or is he something ?

    P.S - sorry for the digression guys .I couldn't help it .Back to topic .
     
  6. Anish

    Anish BANNED BANNED

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    It’s a Brazilian aircraft repainted and renamed
     
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  7. Hindustani78

    Hindustani78 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    All the militaries do have religion as the base in which they show where they stand to protect thier nation from invaders. Adopting religion and occupying others holy lands is not the work of those who believes in the Supreme Creator.

    Vice President's Secretariat
    20-November, 2017 20:50 IST
    India has put 'Dharma' at the centre of governance: Vice President

    The Vice President said that upholding Dharma means sustaining our civilization and if we follow the rule of law, our human society will survive and this is why we say: “Dharmo Rakshati Rakshitaha”. He quoted Chanakya as saying “Law and morality sustain the world”. We all have a stake and a role to play in making this happen in our lives, he added.

    In fact, India has put ‘’Dharma’’ at the centre of governance.

    Let me remind ourselves what Mahabharata says:

    “Dharma is for the stability of society, the maintenance of social order and the general well-being and progress of human kind. Whatever conduces to the fulfillment of these objects is Dharma.”

    Upholding Dharma means sustaining our civilization. If we follow the rule of law, our human society will survive.

    This is why we say: “Dharmo Rakshati Rakshitaha”.


    [​IMG]
     
  8. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

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    The Aircraft is still Brazilian Embraer ERJ-145 but when we count the whole system than we call it as NETRA/DRDO AEW&CS.
    This Aircraft is highly modied as per DRDO requirements. That is why we can't simply say it is repainted and renamed.
    @proud_indian
     
  9. proud_indian

    proud_indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Missing The Woods For The Trees, Putting The Cart Before The Horse

    Whenever hyper-speculative media hype originates from certain claims made by an over-zealous corporate house, the end-result always tantamount to putting the cart before the horse. And this is exactly what has happened in case of the Indian Army’s requirement of third-generation, manportable ATGMs. Presently, the Indian Army is authorised by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to have a total of 81,206 ATGMs, with each infantry battalion deployed in the plains being armed with four medium-range (1.8km-range) and four long-range (4km-range) ATGM launchers (each with six missiles), and those in the mountains have one of each type along with six missiles for each launcher.
    [​IMG]

    In reality, however, the Indian Army’s total existing inventory of ATGMs now stands at only 44,000 that includes 10,000 second-generation MBDA-developed and Bharat Dynamics Ltd-built SACLOS wire-guided Milan-2 ATGMs and 4,600 launchers; 4,100 second-generation MBDL-supplied Milan-2T ATGMs; 15,000 second-generation 4km-range 9M113M Konkurs-M SACLOS wire-guided ATGMs licence-built by BDL, plus another 10,000 that are now being supplied off-the-shelf by Russia’s JSC Tulsky Oruzheiny Zavod. Also on order are 443 DRDO-developed third-generation Nag fire-and-forget ATGMs along with 13 DRDO-developed NAMICA tracked ATGM launchers.

    [​IMG]

    It was in 2003 that Indian Army HQ had formulated a General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) for acquiring the Milan-2T, armed with a tandem-warhead. The tandem warhead was to be licence-built by BDL. The GSQR of the in-service Milan-2 had provided for an essential range as 1,850 metres and a desirable range of 2,000 metres. The GSQR of 2003 for the Milan-2T had indicated the range as 2,000 metres. The RFP for procurement of 4,100 Milan-2Ts was issued to BDL in January 2007. The MoD’s Technical Evaluation Committee (TEC) did not find the product offered by BDL compliant with the GSQR as the range of 2,000 metres offered had only 1,850 metres under wire-guidance phase, while the last 150 metres was left unguided (along with the first 75 metres after missile launch). The case for procurement was therefore closed in May 2007. Subsequently, BDL confirmed that the guidance-range of the Milan-2T would be 2,000 metres. The case was re-opened and trials of the Milan-2T were conducted in February 2008. Based on the firing trial results, Indian Army HQ did not recommend its introduction into service in view of difficulties in engaging moving targets during the last 150 metres. In addition, the requirement was not met in terms of flight-time and overall weight. Furthermore, third-generation ATGMs were already available in the global market by June 2006. Based on representations from the staff union of BDL to the then Minister of State for Defence Production & Supplies (since non-placement of orders for Milan-2Ts would result in redeployment of BDL’s workforce and already procured materials common to Milan-2/-2T would have to be junked), it was decided to procure a minimum required quantity of Milan-2Ts in May 2008 by amending the GSQR in August 2008 for the Milan-2T with 1,850 metres range and with the waiver of in-country firing-trials, after considering the long lead-times required for procuring third-generation ATGMs, and the fact that the shelf-life of existing stocks of Milan-2 would expire by 2013. The revised RFP was issued to BDL in September 2008 as per the amended GSQR. The MoD concluded a procurement contract with BDL in December 2008 for the supply of 4,100 Milan-2T ATGMs at a cost of Rs.587.02 crore with a staggered delivery schedule to be completed within 36 months from the effective date of contract.

    [​IMG]

    The Indian Army had zeroed in on the third-generation FGM-148 Javelin as far back as 2008 after it had conducted in-country summer user-evaluations of the RAFAEL of Israel-built Spike-ER ATGM. During these evaluations, seven out of the 10 missiles fired missed their targets because their on-board uncooled long-wave infra-red (LWIR) sensors failed to distinguish their targets from their surroundings (an identical problem had also beset the Nag ATGM’s uncooled LWIR sensors during user-evaluations). In contrast, the Javelin uses a cooled mid-wave IR (MWIR) sensor that can passively lock-on to targets at up to 50% farther range than an uncooled sensor, thus allowing the firing crew greater and safer standoff distance, and less likely to be exposed to counter-fire. As far as weight is concerned, the cooling equipment adds less than 2 lb per weapon. The uncooled sensor is not only less reliable, but its long-LWIR spectrum is only compatible with a dome made of softer materials that vulnerable to abrasion in harsh environments (e.g. deserts) and consequently require replacement more often. The cooled seeker’s MWIR spectrum allows a durable hardened dome, and it is better than LWIR in discerning threats in certain geographic locations or environmental conditions. An uncooled sensor thus brings increased repairs, decreased operational availability, and dangerous vulnerabilities, while a cooled IIR sensor saves lives, lessens fratricide, minimises collateral damage, lowers risk, and protects its firing platforms/crew.

    [​IMG]

    When the then US Deputy Secretary of Defense, Ashton Carter, arrived in India on September 16, 2013 for a two-day visit, he came equipped with a proposal aimed at dramatically boosting US-India military-industrial relations. The proposal called for 1) licence-production of the FGM-148 Javelin through 97% transfer of manufacturing technology, but withholding the target recognition algorithms of the MWIR seeker (meaning the seeker’s focal plane array sub-assembly would have to be imported off-the-shelf from Raytheon). 2) co-developing with the DRDO’s Research Centre Imaarat (RCI) and its associatedSensors Research Society (SRS) a fourth-generation version of the Javelin that will feature a dual-mode seeker, hyperbaric warhead, and a longer range of up to 4km. This very same offer, under the auspices of theDefence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI), was repeated by the then US Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel, who reached India on August 8, 2014 for a three-day visit. In fact, by early 2015 private company VEM Technologies had already fabricated a full-scale prototype of the FGM-148 Javelin (see image below) that was displayed at the Aero India 2015 expo.

    [​IMG]

    On February 19, 2015 the Kalyani Group issued a press-release that announced the formation of a joint-venture company with Israel’s RAFAEL Advanced Defence Systems (see:http://www.kalyanigroup.com/Final Press Release Kalyani Group Rafael JV.pdf), while the official website of Kalyani RAFAEL Advanced Systems Pvt Ltd (see: http://krasindia.com/) had this to say: KRAS is India’s first private sector Missile sub-systems manufacturing entity. Spread across an area of 24,000 square feet, the KRAS plant in Hardware Tech-Park (In the close vicinity of Rajiv Gandhi International Airport) in Hyderabad will enable production of SPIKE ATGM high-end technology systems within the country. It will be engaged in development of a wide range of advanced capabilities like Missile Technology, Command Control and Guidance, Electro-Optics, Remote Weapon Systems, Precision Guided Munitions and System Engineering for Missile Integration. The facility has been designed to meet the top security classification by adopting highest level of security clearance from Indian and Israel Governments.

    [​IMG]

    What was highly perplexing was that the KRAS JV was openly announcing its ability to produce Spike ATGMs when even the MoD had not inked any contract for procuring the Spike ATGMs. It is from this juncture that the ‘desi’ patrakaars’ went on an overdrive to peddle the story about the Spike ATGM’s procurement. Here are some examples of such rumour-mongering:

    http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...ns-facility-near-hyderabad/article9799805.ece

    http://indianexpress.com/article/in...nt-to-manufacture-anti-tank-missiles-4781807/

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...raeli-missile-system/articleshow/50909202.cms

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...rael-for-antitank-missiles/article8310952.ece

    http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...elis-spike-missile-for-1-b/article9749112.ece

    https://www.defensenews.com/breakin...-to-buy-spike-anti-tank-missiles-from-rafael/
    https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-to-buy-8-000-of-these-anti-tank-missiles-from-israel-684662

    http://www.business-standard.com/ar...e-off-with-israel-s-spike-113121700038_1.html

    [​IMG]

    One news-report, published on September 1, 2016 (http://www.business-standard.com/ar...e-with-lockheed-martin-jv-116083101441_1.html) even went to the extent of claiming that TATA Power SED had formed a Javelin Joint Venture (JJV) with Raytheon and Lockheed Martin for licence-producing the Javelin ATGMs!

    [​IMG]

    In reality, the DRDO has since 2012 been co-developing a third-generation MPATGM along with VEM Technologies. The RCI has since then developed the all-composite rocket motor casing, MEMS-based redundant micro-navigation system (RMNS), as well as a new-generation IIR sensor that employs semiconductors using indium gallium nitride and aluminum gallium nitride alloys for the RCI-developed 1024-element staring focal plane arrays operating in the ultra-violet bandwidth that give better solar radiation rejection. User-evaluations of the definitive MPATGM are expected to commence next year, with bulk production commencing sometime in 2020. Both VEM Technologies and BDL will be contracted for mass-producing the MPATGM. As a fall-back measure, in the event of the RCI-developed MWIR sensor not maturing within the given deadline (primarily due to the challenges of developing the all-important target recognition algorithm), then the option of importing the Javelin’s LWIR sensor sub-assembly for integration with the MPATGM still remains open.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    In addition to the MPATGM, the DRDO along with VEM Technologies is also developing a laser-guided 2.75-inch air-to-surface rocket (first shown at the Aero India 2017 expo) that will be launchable from the Rudra, LUH and LCH platforms.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    https://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2017/11/missing-woods-for-trees-putting-cart.html
     
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  10. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    Pakistan Army anti-tank missiles like the Baktar-Shikan outrange Indian Army missiles

    NEW DELHI:
    HIGHLIGHTS
    1. To promote Make-In-India, anti-tank missile deal with Israel ends
    2. India wants similar missile to be developed within 4 years
    3. Pak missiles to target tanks have wider range, worries army

    The government's decision to opt out of a $500 million missile deal with Israel will leave Indian soldiers badly out-gunned by Pakistani forces, army sources told NDTV today. The bottom line is this: Pakistan has portable anti-tank missiles for its infantry soldiers which can strike Indian tanks and bunkers that are at a distance of 3-4 km; India's equivalent missiles have a range of just 2 km.


    India has exited advanced negotiations to buy 1,600 Spike anti-tank guided missiles because it wants a similar missile, which would boost the army's firepower, to be developed and built at home as part of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's push to reduce the country's dependence on importing arms. Spike is a man-portable "fire and forget' missile that can hit moving targets such as a tank. It is versatile since the missile independently tracks the target upon being fired. This allows the infantry soldier who has fired the missile to quickly move for cover. Spike is produced by Israel's Rafael Advanced Defence Systems.

    [​IMG]
    India has cancelled a deal for Israeli designed Spike anti-tank missiles


    Pakistani foot soldiers operate a locally-made variant of the Chinese HJ-8 missile that can strike targets almost twice as far away as the missiles currently operated by the Indian Army. Pakistan's infantry also operates the US-built TOW missile which can strike targets such as tanks and bunkers even further away.

    The Chinese HJ-8, which Pakistan calls the "Baktar-Shikan", is designed to defeat the latest generation of explosive reactive armour mounted on the T-90, the spearhead of the Indian Army's tank formations. These missiles are meant to strike deep inside Pakistani territory in the event of a war. The Baktar-Shikan has a range of between 3 and 4 kilometres. Pakistani's TOW missiles, once the mainstay for US forces, can hit targets 4 kilometres away and has been extensively proven in combat.

    [​IMG]
    India's Milan 2T and Konkurs missiles can strike targets about 2 km away


    By contrast, the Indian Army's infantry soldiers carry either the French-German Milan 2T or the Russian 9M113 'Konkurs' missile, both of which have a range of just 2 kilometres.




    Last year, India concluded negotiations with Israel's Rafael for the Spike missile which was supposed to be built in India in a joint venture with the Kalyani group, which has already constructed a missile-manufacturing facility near Hyderabad. Now, however, in a strong endorsement of the PM's Make In India programme, the government has decided to back the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) which says it can deliver a world-class missile within four years.

    Sources in the army tell NDTV that the development cycle required for the missile will have a serious impact on infantry formations. They add that any delay in the development, testing and induction of the indigenous missile beyond four years would be unacceptable for the army.

    In an interview to an Israeli newspaper, Ishai David, a spokesperson for Rafael said today, "Rafael has not been officially informed of any change in the decision to purchase missiles." The Kalyani group in India was not available for comment.

    https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/why...-with-israel-1777869?pfrom=home-lateststories
     
  11. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    India has the 9M113M version, with upto 4 km range.

    IA's Milan replacement will be the MPATGM. All these SACLOS wire-guided stuff needs to go.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Nice article
     
  13. Flyboy!

    Flyboy! Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    This is 70s stuff mahn.
     
  14. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    He is the biggest moron of all. He said we have already ordered spike and SF started using it. Idiot calling everyone names to cover his impotence.

    @Gessler @Abingdonboy
     
  15. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    No its not. Spike was to compliment Milan 2T and Konkur.
     

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