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Ministry of Defence scraps $500-million Israeli missile deal, wants DRDO to make in India

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Butter Chicken, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Yes - and Afaik he's sticking with that statement. The order of 8,356 Spikes was indeed placed and that is separate from IA's requirement of Milan replacement (and the whole license-production issue is with this).

    Even SIPRI confirms this:

    [​IMG]

    There was no ToT or local production deal involved with this order. However I think KRAS anticipated bigger orders for the infantry (several tens of thousands) and formed that JV.

    The earliest Milans will be the first to go. Lekin jaana toh sab ko hai. Even Konkurs eventually.

    These ATGMs have shelf lives of some 10-15 years at best. By the time MPATGM production will ramp up (and replace the oldest Milans), even Konkurs and 2T will be nearing the end of their's.

    But as a matter of fact, they are both Gen-II SACLOS wire-guided systems and HAVE to be eventually replaced by a Gen-III fire-and-forget solution sooner or later.

    Before MPATGM emerged, there was no Indian Gen-III manportable solution that is worth anything. On SAMHO front nothing happened (basically a tube-launched Lahat/CLGM).

    At that point, the long-term plan was indeed to import either Javelin or Spike and license-produce them in India.
     
    GuardianRED likes this.
  2. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    Yeah, thats BS.

    check my statement. There is significant difference between original milan and 2T. Milan may get replaced but not 2T or Konkur.
     
  3. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    This is what we are discussing, bro :biggthumpup:

    Already posted. Check previous pages.
     
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  4. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    My bad - post deleted!
     
  5. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    How is he sticking with it. He is calling everyone moron for it.

    This is obviously a mistake from SIPRI. There is no chance for rafael to get half a billion contract without offset or fanfare. Is there any official source on it ?
    The numbers are exact from the RFI which allegedly got cancelled. How could you take it seriously ?
     
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  6. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    I remember some aero india talk on this subject (Nag) like 5 years ago. Our ATGM requirement is significant (40,000+) and assuming our long term plan was to import is not logical. MPATGM did not appear out of no where.
     
  7. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Guess you can just ask Rafael directly on their Twitter handle. :biggthumpup:

    I've heard of the manportable Nag as well. But Afaik, that's just a pitch by DRDO to bite off more than they could chew at the time. Even vehicle-mounted Nag wasn't ready and they were pitching for a manportable version? Naah.

    No wonder IA didn't take them seriously.

    If our long-term plan was locally-designed solution, then why did we waste decade+ of time and money on all these tenders, evaluations and reports? IA/MoD could just have said they're waiting for DRDO to come up with something.

    Remember our search for a Gen-III manportable system is now 10 years plus in the making. And MPATGM will become a serious system only about 3 years from now - that's if everything goes to plan.
     
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  8. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    May be we should before proliferating such things.

    I too don't agree with scrapping of the tender. They should have gone for a limited ToT at least.

    And there was never a man portable nag, they just meant MPATGM. Nag and MPATGM are very different systems. One is not prerequisite to build other.

    IA do this tender charade on everything. Its their was of having a fallback and chance do some corruption.
     
    Sathya, Vyom and Gessler like this.
  9. Vyom

    Vyom Captain GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    hmm... that's a good food for thought...
     
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  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Spikes for airborne duties perhaps??
     
  11. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Yes it does both HJ-8 and TOW does but when you would Javelin if you are buying them no it doesn't beat that for that we would have to go for HJ-12 from China and may be the new one from South Korea and also develop one with Turkey
     
  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    LOL @Zarvan

    Now do not begin to educate me on your LAT and HAT sections too.
    There is no out ranging. HJ 8 or Bhaktar Shikan has 3 km range in crewed configuration. Compare it to the Konkurs and Milan held in Indian stock for the infantry :)


    Perhaps if you had some background training, you would understand why the man/crew portable versions are limited to 2500 m to 3000 m tops :)

    It is to do with your mobility (for the infantrymen) and range, try carrying the bigger missiles of longer range for infantry, you will be laughed out for suggesting that ;)

    On the other hand, vehicle borne missile carriers have extended range ATGMs available, as is with us, so is with you.

    For your TOW-2A/B, read Kornet-EM at 8000 meters. Still out ranges TOW by 2500 m ++ (you can do the research, you are good at getting open sourced data).

    Just start doing a comparative exercise on your own, from RPG-7/Alcotan 100/RPG 18 in PA and Carl Gustav in IA to Vehicle Borne ATGMs, you will get the exact situation.

    So don't peddle bullshit as a poster to give credence to the bullshit posted in the article. It is like comparing a flat bed rated to 2 tonnes and flatbed rated to 5 tonnes and claiming that latter is more capable :D
     
  13. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Do not tolerate low quality, you know the drill.
     
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  14. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    This has turned out to be cock and bull story. The deal has not been finalized in the first place.:nope:
     
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  15. InfoWarrior

    InfoWarrior Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    @Sancho @Hellfire
    political angle: happy DRDO and make in India + Syria contracts + Iran gas fields

    Movement to Boycott Israeli Industry Hails India’s Decision to Scrap $500m Missile Deal
    In a press release, Jamal Juma, member of Palestinian Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) national committee secretariat and coordinator of the ‘Stop the Wall’ campaign, said that the cancellation is a “huge blow to the Israeli weapons industry”, which he claimed was “deeply implicated in war crimes against the Palestinian people”.

    “It is also a major setback for Israel’s propaganda hubris that its technology is indispensable for India’s development and modernisation. As many Indians are recognising, Israel is marketing military and agricultural technologies in India to entrench Indian dependence on Israel,” said Juma.

    According to Omar Barghouti, co-founder of the BDS movement, Israel’s “regime of oppression can never be a model for the great Indian nation that once led the non-aligned movement and upheld the right of all nations to self-determination”.

    He hoped that this was “the beginning of the end of Indian complicity in Israel’s egregious violation of international law and Palestinian human rights”.

    Israeli reactions

    The Jerusalem Post quoted the spokesperson of Rafael Advanced Defence Systems as saying that the Israeli firm had “not been officially informed of any change in the decision to purchase Spike missiles”.

    The article described the cancellation as a “blow to Israeli-Indian defence ties”, even as it pointed out that India had also recently signed up to a $630 million deal for the Barak 8 system.

    The Times of Israel noted that the purchase was “a major milestone in Israeli-Indian relations”, while Ynet News described it as a “flagship deal that cemented the budding Israeli-Indian security relationship”.

    All the Israeli media articles noted that Rafael had opened a manufacturing complex in India, along with an Indian partner, Kalyani Group, in August this year.

    The Post article speculated that there could be other factors behind the cancellation, as India had yet to master anti-missile technology. It quoted an Israeli defence industry expert to point out that earlier Israeli firms had been blacklisted for corruption, which “have more to do with internal Indian politics because there are many in India who object very much to India’s contacts with Israel”.

    The expert also suggested that international competition may have played a role too. “Maybe they got a better deal from Russia,” Yiftah Shapir of Tel Aviv University’s Institute of National Security Studies told the Post.
    https://thewire.in/199128/bds-movement-israel-india-missile-deal/

    Syria hesitant about India’s role in reconstruction after Modi’s Israel visit
    The World Bank estimates that the cost of rebuilding Syria’s cities will be $200 billion, and HT has learnt India that has the capacity to take on projects worth $20 billion.
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...srael-visit/story-qrCg8r1UGcTvtyrsNknOKK.html


    Iran’s Ministry of Petroleum says it has started preliminary talks with Russians to develop Farzad B but negotiations also continue with the Indians who have long coveted the giant gas field.
    http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/09/05/534091/Iran-India-Farzad-B-gas-field-Russia-Israel

    Modi's Israel visit impact: ONGC to bid for Israeli oil & gas exploration blocks
    Energean, ONGC bid for Israel offshore blocks
    http://www.oedigital.com/drilling/item/16579-energean-ongc-bid-for-israel-offshore-blocks
     
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