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Mirage-2000 Multirole Fighter Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tariqkhan18, Apr 7, 2010.

  1. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Mirage F1 : internal 3095kg.
    Mirage 2000 : internal 3200kg.
     
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  2. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I suggestyou read more about aerodynamics and you will understand these things better. No canard or tailess delta can ever beat a wing-tail design in lifting ability. I had posted all the research data by Americans on LSA thread.
    Just check out the wing area of both and tell me which aircraft is better.
     
  3. Angel Eyes

    Angel Eyes 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Why don't we just copy mirage 2000 like the chinese did with Su 27 and scrap SE fighter...
     
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  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    LCA is exactly that.
     
  5. Angel Eyes

    Angel Eyes 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Then why do we need new SE jet...
     
  6. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]
    ^ Mirage F1 Vs Mirage 2000 v
    [​IMG]
     
  7. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The truth of the pudding is in eating it. French themselves bought F-1 in larger numbers than any of the tailless delta series and continued to use F-1 as interceptor even after M2K had been inducted. F-1 was retired in 2014 and its replacement was Rafale and not M2K. Its very shocking to see our members from France belittling one of their own designs to win an argument and that too which they can never win. An agency providing intruder training to USAF has bought them in large numbers. They have not bought M2ks or Mirage-3/5.
     
  8. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Mirage 3/5 are too old (you'd have to go to Pakistan to find some that are still in flying shape); Mirage 2000 are too young (not for second-hand sale yet). The Mirage F1 are in the Goldilocks zone where they're old enough that air forces are eager to sell them away, but not so old that keeping them flying outside of airshows is ruinous.
     
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  9. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Oh really,which year did first F-one fly?
     
  10. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Five years after the first Mirage III. But the first do not matter; the last do.

    The first are the ones that are the most likely to have eaten through all their potential and then been cannibalized as a source of spare for their younger siblings. And even if they are still potentially usable, they're also the most likely to be the most severely outdated examples of the type.

    Mirage III were retired from service in 1992 in Spain, and in 1994 in France (along with the Mirage 5). Mirage F1 were retired in Spain in 2013 and in France in 2014. So they are twenty years younger.


    Besides, you have to consider other factors too. For example, if you were looking to buy some recently retired aircraft to serve as aggressor training squadrons in the mid-1990s, don't you think the Mirage III/5 would have had a fierce competition from the former-WARPAC aircraft? Russia back then was in the throes of the "shock therapy" conversion to oligarchic neoliberalism following the fall of the Soviet Union, and most of the newly-independent former Soviet countries in Eastern Europe were likewise cash-strapped and eager to sell a surplus of war machines right at a time when all that stuff seemed to become useless now that the Cold War was over.

    Twenty years later. Russia is getting back on its feet and frightening Eastern European countries again; China is going through an impressive military build-up, and western countries have been fatigued by fifteen years of forever war against terror in Afghanistan and the Middle East. The situation is completely different.
     
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  11. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Maybe you were a nice fighter pilot, it doesn't make you an aerodynamic specialist ! (ie a gamer can win without having the ability to study a computer) And you don't know the cursus of the others on this forum.

    Fact is that I have a friend who is a retired F1 CT pilot. He confirmed me that this wasn't a carefree handling plane. As Jaguar.
    He said me that having discus anf fly with Mud M2000D pilots that M2000 is very safe and far more effective.

    About Delta and canards, another fact is that 3 differents european country or consortium decided to built their own fighter around this aerodynamic solution.... as Israel (which was forced by US to end the encouraging Lavi program). Even china use it.
    It's not because LM don't use delta that it is not a nice solution. The same so called US specialists said that a Delta can't be a good naval fighter (probably because they can't exploit it)... Rafale is the proof that they were wrong.

    And eurocanards (at least one of them) can match the powerfull and TVC equipped wing tail F22.
     
  12. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    You were better informed before.....

    Mirage 3 in France air force : 413 planes (95 of a order of 100 M3, 56 M3 dual seat, 192 M3E, 70 M3 D and RD)
    Mirage F1 : 246 (160 F1C, 20 F1 dual seat, 66 FICR).

    F1 was used as interceptor even after the first M2000 was inducted, because F1 was a replacement of planes inducted before Mirage 3, when M2000 was the replacement of Mirage 3.

    About the agency training USAF : 1) USAF used Kfir to train.... 2) There is no "flying" Mirage 3 on the market (at least in France) and no M2000 on the market (France keep it for strategic reserve).

    sorry. You are totaly wrong there.
     
  13. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Besides the whole story of "Dassault made the 2000 and Rafale deltas because they build incrementally on what they had" doesn't explain why they made the F1 in the first place; nor does it explain why the 2000 and the Rafale weren't incrementally developed from the F1 if it was so superior.

    1) Kfir? What Kfir? Surely you meant the F-21! :p
    2) Pakistan still operate Mirage III/5. They have up to 90 of each type (so, 180 of both), and they've modernized them as best they could. For doing so, they've vacuumed all the second-hand Mirages they could find -- Australia, Belgium, Libya, Spain, every Mirage III or 5 customer that was retiring the type, they were there to get them. (Another reason why you didn't see much of any for aggressor duty.) They should all be retired within the next three years, though. Perhaps we'll see them getting a third life as aggressors in the mid 2020s.
     
  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Because the M2K is an old design, with it's own limitations and no future potential anymore, since it's not in production and doesn't get credible upgrades in future. That leaves 2 SE MMRCAs and Tejas that is a class below M2K or SE MMRCAs, no matter what vstol jockey claims.

    IAFs requirement is for Tejas + MMRCAs + MKIs, so Tejas has no relation to any MMRCAs.
     
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  15. Angel Eyes

    Angel Eyes 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Then why not build our very own SE mmrca....
     

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