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Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Agent_47, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Why not? They are operating Mig 29s, so can induct them into operational service right away. All 45 are already in India and IAF doesn't need to wait for 3 years to induct them. They have weapons and tech commonality to their Mig 29UPG, except for the RD33MK engine, so hardly any new logistics. Getting new Mig 29Ks from IN without the need, to overhaul or customize them again, is clearly preferable, than buying 2nd hand Migs from Malaysia, don't you think?
    Besides it would only bridge the gap till the SE tender is fixed anyway, since even the 45 x Migs would not cover the requirements of MMRCA.
     
  2. Zer0reZ

    Zer0reZ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Boeing Proposes Indian Production Line for Naval Fighter Jet F/A-18

    Boeing’s offer comes in anticipation of a $15 billion contract for 57 multi-role combat fighter jets. The 57 multi-role fighter jets are to be deployed at Indian Navy’s INS Vikramaditya and Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC). However, it is widely speculated that F/A-18 would be too big to operate from Indian aircraft carriers.

    New Delhi (Sputnik) — American firm Boeing has offered to set up a production facility for its F/A-18 fighter jet in India if it is awarded the $15 billion contract for 57 multi-role combat fighter jets for the Indian Navy's aircraft carrier. The procurement plan of 57 combat jets is currently in the request for information (RFI) stage. India is desirous of licensed production of the fighter jets with the transfer of technology.

    "We are talking about creating a next generation facility in India. We think the Super Hornet is the most advanced airplane that India could manufacture which will lead to the next generation of the airplane that India will design and build here," Dan Gillian, Vice President of Boeing's F/A-18 program, said in a press conference in New Delhi.

    The company asserted that fighter jets would require ‘no modifications' to operate from the ski-jump of the aircraft carriers such as INS Vikramaditya, and under-construction Vikrant-class. But, questions persist whether it would be feasible to set up a production line for such low quantity of fighter jets?

    "Given the Make in India slant in the defense procurement policy through the mechanism of strategic partnerships, no foreign company can expect to remain in contention unless it is prepared to facilitate the substantial amount of manufacturing in India. The offer to make helicopters, or any other platform for that matter, has to be seen in this perspective. The viability of the offer depends not just on the domestic demand but also on the potential for exports. Having said that, no deal can be clinched only on the basis of the offer to make a platform in India," Amit Cowshish, former financial advisor to Indian defense ministry told Sputnik.

    Boeing is however not the first foreign firm to make such an offer. Other contenders include French Rafale, Swedish Saab Sea Gripen and Russian MiG-29K.
    Dassault Aviation & Saab have already offered setting up a production line in India in case of a large order for fighter jets. Sputnik had reported in July this year that French Rafale of Dassault Aviation and American F-18 of Boeing had given trials off the Russian origin aircraft carrier Vikramaditya. The remaining contenders are yet to give trials.

    The RFI for the multi-billion mega deal was issued by the Indian Navy in January this year in response to which Russian, French, Swedish and American companies had replied with their intent. The Indian Navy has said that responses are being evaluated and a formal tender may be issued as early as next year. Sources told to Sputnik that the delivery of the fighter jets is not expected before 2025.

    The Indian Navy is looking for day-night; all-weather multi-role deck based combat aircraft which can be used for air defense, air-to-surface operations, buddy refueling, reconnaissance, and EW missions from naval aircraft carriers.

    "Clinching of the deal depends on a number of technical and commercial factors, beginning with compliance of the platform with the technical specifications laid down by the Ministry of Defense, life cycle support and its price competitiveness," Cowshish added.

    Selected aircraft will operate from indigenously developed IAC-1 aircraft carrier which will be conventional ski jump based short take-off but arrested recovery (STOBAR) layout and INS Vikramaditya. The IAC 1 which is under-construction is expected to begin sea trials in 2019.
     
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Not really, since the RFI/EOI last year was confirmed by Saab, LM and Indian officials. The article is based on unnamed sources and has several issues, one for example is, that it says:
    But the RFI only should provide informations, while the RFP must be submitted in a joint offer with the selected Indian SP, which the article got wrong as well.
    I wouldn't rule out the need for another RFI, if the Indian bureaucracy requires one, after making the SPM official, but not based on that article and neither does it deny the fact that the OEMs already responded to MoD.

    Anyway, at the end it doesn't matter if IAF or IN was first, the more interesting part is, how the new policy will be implemented by the MoD, because there are still issues that needs to be adressed.
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The Mig-29K is compatible for sea operations. It was designed for it decades ago. First flight in 1988. It isn't as good as the Rafale, but it can do the job necessary.

    And Indian carriers are not full fledged aircraft carriers anyway. So no AWACS and no Greyhound. The Mig-29s have to operate under P-8s.

    No. The Rafale's bring back load is much lesser than that. It can't land back with 9.5T on a carrier.

    Not to mention, a huge chunk of the 9.5T payload is fuel. Its only realistic payload is about 400-700Kg of air to air missiles and 1.5 to 3T of bombs and cruise missiles. The rest is all fuel.
     
    vstol jockey likes this.
  5. CNL-PN-AA

    CNL-PN-AA 2nd Lieutant MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-outlines-india-fa-18-ef-offering-440676/

    Boeing outlines India F/A-18 E/F offering
    30 AUGUST, 2017 FLIGHTGLOBAL.COM BY: GREG WALDRON SINGAPORE


    Boeing is actively promoting its F/A-18 E/F fighter for a future Indian naval requirement, with promise of a major industrial programme.

    The US airframer recently discussed its bid for an Indian navy requirement for 57 fighters at a media event in New Delhi.

    Presentation slides the company provided to FlightGlobal showed that its "Block III" Super Hornet offering includes signature improvements to reduce the jet's radar cross section, an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor situated in a centreline fuel pod, and conformal fuel tanks to boost the aircraft's range.

    Also included is an updated cockpit with a single, large panel display.

    The package resembles Boeing's Super Hornet International Roadmap offering, which it promoted for India's former Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) acquisition for 126 aircraft for the air force. This deal was ultimately won by the Dassault Rafale, and although MMRCA ultimately fell through, New Delhi still ordered 36 Rafales.

    A big part of Boeing's offering is its industrial package, a key requirement under New Delhi's 'Make in India' initiative. One slide notes that current production of the type in the United States employs 60,000 people and involves 800 suppliers.

    For India, Boeing is offering final assembly, the opportunity to "maximise indigenous content," and the chance to participate in the type's global supply chain.

    In a video interview with Indian defence site Livefist, Dan Gillian, vice president, F/A-18 & EA-18 programmes at Boeing, said the Super Hornet is capable of operating from India's existing carriers, having determined this through simulations with the Indian Navy.

    "We think we can move around the deck, be fully operational, be very mission capable with a relevant weapons load out to give the navy what they need," Gillian told Livefist. "We think we can bring the power of Boeing and what we've learned on F-18 to build a next generation factory for India, which will also allow India to build its next generation aircraft as well."

    India operates a single aircraft carrier, the INS Vikramaditya, which operates RSK MiG-29K fighters. Unlike US carriers, which use a catapult to launch aircraft, it launches aircraft via a ramp, in a short take-off but arrested recovery (STOBAR) configuration.

    Another STOBAR carrier, the INS Vikrant, is under construction. A third carrier, IAC-II, is being designed. This ship could have a CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) arrangement similar to US carriers.
     
  6. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    MII Super Hornet with block 3 advanced super hornet.

    57 initial + plans for more orders pending carrier competition.

    What India gets in return.

    -EMALS approval (cream of the crop technology, basically nato ally status)
    -Approval should India want the F-35. Perhaps the STOVL variant for assault ships or future carriers.
    -USS Kitty is refurbished and handed to India as a stop gap measure until IAC3/4 is available.
    -Produce components for the F-18 and maybe helicopters. IDK how this works, but it would be simpler than the F-16 since USA is the only country that produces the SH.
    -Final assembly and checkout facility as well as a repair hub.
    -Boeing assistance for engine development/fifth generation planes. Boeing actually needs this because they plan to compete hard for the F/A-XX. Need the experience.
     
  7. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    F-16 deal goes through, > 57 F-35 B's instead please.
     
  8. CNL-PN-AA

    CNL-PN-AA 2nd Lieutant MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    http://idrw.org/rafale-m-and-f-18-ef-to-battle-to-serve-on-ins-vikramaditya/

    Rafale M and F-18 E/F to battle to serve on INS Vikramaditya Published August 31, 2017 SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK US defence major Boeing along with French defence major Dassault Aviation both are claiming that their Rafale M and F-18 E/F Carrier fighter aircraft which have been offered to Indian Navy to meet its MRCBF Tender issued few weeks backs for 57 Carrier borne fighter aircraft can operate from INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant.

    Indian Navy not to go by word is planning to carry out series of carrier qualifications trials which will be carried out from INS Vikramaditya to check if it’s compatible with Indian Navy’s Aircraft carrier fleet.

    Indian Navy has received responses from four Companies Rafale (Dassault, France), F-18 Super Hornet (Boeing, US), MIG-29K (Russia) and Gripen (Saab, Sweden) but the contest is largely seen as a fight between Rafale M vs F-18 E/F since Saab’s Sea Gripen is just a concept and no Prototype exists to carry out Carrier qualifications trials thus eliminating it and MIG-29K is already operated by Indian Navy but to serviceability issues might not be procured again .

    Carrier qualifications trials will start off with basic “touch and go” landings and will move to more advanced landing and takeoffs if initial trials go without a hitch. Aircraft will then have to perform series of Take-offs and landing with adequate weapons load from Mid-Sea at near Operational ready environment.

    Aircraft will also be checked for a smooth transfer from Hangar Storage facility in the ship to the main deck since Russian developed INS Vikramaditya was specifically designed for MIG-29K operations and all the Lift and Storage facilities need to be tested out in Carrier qualifications trials.

    The French team are confident that Rafale M which operates from much Smaller French Naval aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle then INS Vikramaditya will be able to operate from INS Vikramaditya and Boeing Team already has carried out Successful Computer Simulation Carrier qualifications trials of F-18 landing on INS Vikramaditya.

    Naval Experts close to idrw.org have told us that, Both Team will be visiting INS Vikramaditya Soon to check the aircraft carrier for their preparation for Carrier qualifications trials and to also ensure that necessary safety measures be taken to avoid any of the aircraft causing damages to INS Vikramaditya or getting stuck.

    MIG-29K will continue to remain on board INS Vikramaditya during Carrier qualifications trials to check if the carrier can accommodate and operate two different aircraft from its deck with ease.
     
    Picdelamirand-oil likes this.
  9. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Yes if they tilt Rafale by 25 ° it will be able to use the elevators. To do this, it will be necessary to raise it about 1 m 30 so that the low wing does not touch the ground.

    It is enough to have a special trolley where the wheels of the landing gear can be held on the cylinders and then to control the height of one wheel to 1 m 30 and the height of the other so that the plane Is inclined at 25 °. This process can be automatic.

    When the aircraft is in the right position, the truck is rolled to the elevator, positioned correctly before raising the elevator.

    Arrived on the deck, the lowering of the landing gear is achieved, the wheels of the landing gear are freed and the aircraft is rolled over the bridge.
     
  10. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    This is what Prasun Sengupta replied in his BLOG

    To SATPATHY: Isn’t this the ‘Bandalbaaz’ that has taken to writing pulp-fiction novels & was earlier this year part of an all-expenses-paid junket trip sponsored by Boeing? And interestingly, AFTER I had stated in very clear terms that the IAC-2 project was postponed indefinitely, it is now highly amusing to read that Boeing riding on the shoulders of this ‘desi bandalbaaz’ is now pitching for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to go on-board the INS Vikramaditya & Project 71/IAC-1/Vikrant!!! But (LoLz!) the devil always lies & lurks within the detail as I had explained several times before. And only those who overlook such details make IDIOTIC statements like the Super Hornet & Rafale being capable of being accommodated within the hangar elevators of the INS Vikramaditya & Project 71/IAC-1/Vikrant. The question that arises then is what happens AFTER such non-Russian combat aircraft arrive inside the below-deck hangar? What kind of customisation is reqd for such a hangar? And which naval architect from which country will certify the highly modified design of such a hangar? These questions are highly relevant/critical because the entire hangar design & internal fitments (like weapons storage bays & aircraft servicing facilities) for both INS Vikramaditya & Project 71/IAC-1/Vikrant came directly from Russia & were customised solely for the MiG-29Ks, Ka-28PLs & Ka-31s.

    So, as you can now probably fathom, there’s much more to carrier-based flight operations than just taking off from a ski-ramp or using hangar elevators. And all this can be explained in convincing/compelling detail only by experienced naval architects, & most definitely not by Bandalbaazes penning pulp-fiction novels! Isn’t this the ‘Bandalbaaz’ that has taken to writing pulp-fiction novels & was earlier this year part of an all-expenses-paid junket trip sponsored by Boeing? And interestingly, AFTER I had stated in very clear terms that the IAC-2 project was postponed indefinitely, it is now highly amusing to read that Boeing riding on the shoulders of this ‘desi bandalbaaz’ is now pitching for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to go on-board the INS Vikramaditya & Project 71/IAC-1/Vikrant!!! But (LoLz!) the devil always lies & lurks within the detail as I had explained several times before. And only those who overlook such details make IDIOTIC statements like the Super Hornet & Rafale being capable of being accommodated within the hangar elevators of the INS Vikramaditya & Project 71/IAC-1/Vikrant. The question that arises then is what happens AFTER such non-Russian combat aircraft arrive inside the below-deck hangar? What kind of customisation is reqd for such a hangar? And which naval architect from which country will certify the highly modified design of such a hangar? These questions are highly relevant/critical because the entire hangar design & internal fitments (like weapons storage bays & aircraft servicing facilities) for both INS Vikramaditya & Project 71/IAC-1/Vikrant came directly from Russia & were customised solely for the MiG-29Ks, Ka-28PLs & Ka-31s.

    So, as you can now probably fathom, there’s much more to carrier-based flight operations than just taking off from a ski-ramp or using hangar elevators. And all this can be explained in convincing/compelling detail only by experienced naval architects, & most definitely not by Bandalbaazes penning pulp-fiction novels!
     
  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    DCNS from France. They just have to duplicate and adapte internal arrangement of Charle de Gaule Carrier.
     
  12. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    And Why would Russia allow that, when they would be pitching their MIG 29K.
    Second Would French would be so comfortable, dealing with the modification work, with all the equipments, wiring, connectors, actuators, hydraulics, piping, tools of the Russian Specification and Standards -- Second assume DCNS was able to do that, and swap the russian components with the French ones, who will give the Guarantee, the Carrier Design, operational safety -- And last but not the least, what would be the inflation of the cost which would rise in the light of the fact, that French consider their job too good, and the cost of the service too Good.
     
  13. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It will be your choice, we are just able to make a proposal, if you agree, every thing fine, if not, we will see other opportunities to collaborate, it's not a problem.
     
  14. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    If it were easy you would not have to ask the French.
     
  15. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    When did I or Indian Navy asked the French, DCNS, or picdelamirand to submit their proposal for the virtual/dreamed/ficious French Modification over Indian/Russian Designed Carrier. I however believe, that Indians are more attracted to the US OEMs to do such modification, with whom IN have taken many consultancy.

    This makes F-18sh or may be F-35B, with US EMALs proposition an attractive proposal, depending how the Indo-US relationship turns out to be in future.
     

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