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Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Agent_47, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Sorry, but CFTs are NOT an advantage (or you can be lucky correcting a failed aerodynamics like F18 C/D/E/F). The reason of it is they are placed on the extrados, the lifting generation place of wings.

    How far? They would have to shoot while taking off or so...
     
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    With CFTs, Rafale will have the same range as the Su-30MKI, but the Mig-29 won't.

    Official ranges on internal fuel:
    Mig-29K = 2000Km, 4.5T fuel, 182KN
    Rafale = >2100Km, 4.7T fuel, 150KN
    SH = 2350Km, 6.1T fuel, 180KN

    The Mig-29SMT's CFT adds 1880L. But I think this design is superior to the ones on the Rafale and SH because it doesn't add as much to weight and the effect on drag is zero. The Mig-29A with CFT gives the same range as Rafale on internal fuel. So the Mig-29K should do much better.

    Rafale's CFT adds only 2300L whereas the SH adds as much as 4000L.
     
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Exactly, because the only heavy stations on the wings, are meant to carry fuel tanks. Which also makes Brahmos with a centerline fuel tank just a fantasy and without any operational meaning. And it doesn't have any long range ground attack missile or a stand off PGM.
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Mig-29's CFTs don't affect aerodynamics since it is located on the spine.

    The missile is less than 1m longer than the KH-31PD (5.3m), so the effect on drag is not going to be significantly more. The CFT and 2 Brahmos-M are about 5000Kg, even the current Mig-29K can carry that much off a carrier. But if a Mig-29K is loaded up with 2 Brahmos-M, that would mean it's a high profile mission, so then the aircraft will take off with less fuel and load up in the air through buddy refueling.

    You can say the Mig-29K with CFT and 2 Brahmos-M should provide very similar range as Su-30MKI loaded up with 1 Brahmos-A. But as Vstol pointed out, the Mig-29K will need 100KN engines, the RuN is currently operating with 94KN engines while IN only has 91KN engines. That should allow the IN to operate with much heavier loads.

    Rest assured, the Russians will participate with a heavily modernized version for the MRCBF. They are even offering active cancellation.

    The network of airstrips and bases are more than enough to take care of the range problem. All of them are well within 1500-2000Km away. So the aircraft can be diverted and restocked in multiple places without issues.

    [​IMG]

    From India to Oman is 2000Km. From Peninsular India to Car Nicobar is 1700Km. From Car Nicobar to NE India is 1750Km. If you place a carrier in the middle of Bay of Bengal or Arabian Sea, the Mig-29s can hop across IOR very easily without fear of running out of fuel.

    The addition of dedicated air refueling assets will change the equation drastically. That extra 600Km range Rafale provides will become irrelevant.
     
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  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The CFT more than makes up for it. The drop tanks can't compare.

    The Mig-29K will use Indian glide bombs and is equipped with very good stand off PGMs already.
    Here's two options that are being developed.
    https://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/03/indian-air-force-unveils-own-stand-off.html

    This is apart from the Russian options already available.
    All of these are PGMs.
    [​IMG]

    KAB-500s.
    [​IMG]

    Mig-29s have all types of weapons, EO guidance, laser, satellite, you name it. The Russians have given precision capability of 3m even to dumb bombs. And a whole host of new weapons have been made since the PAK FA started, including 3 new A2S missiles.
     
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  6. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    @halloweene
    The Brahmos-M will have more than 850Km range.
     
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  7. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    So now you understand why CFTs would be needed to carry heavy weapons on a Mig, without them, it will be limited in weight class and numbers of weapons, basically below 1000Kg and 2 at max.
    A Rafale on the other side can carry more fuel and up to 3 heavy weapons above 1000Kg, which logically makes it more useful for strikes at land targets.

    The Mig is an upgrade to the Sea Harrier, but no capable carrier fighter with the range and weapon capabilities of a Rafale, or F18SH and most likely even clearly behind J15.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The CFT makes the Mig better in terms of range, like a boost to the internal fuel, it doesn't change anything else with respect to weapons load or configuration. With CFT, the Mig-29 can still carry the centerline tank.

    As for Rafale, can you tell me what land targets it can strike and from where? And can you tell me exactly why the Mig cannot reach those targets?

    Let me ask you a question. If you want to fly from Mumbai to Delhi, does it matter if you fly in an aircraft that has 5000Km range or is 2000Km enough?

    In the IOR, the only advantage Rafale-M has over the Mig-29K is on-station time, nothing else. But if you consider the costs, we can buy a whole lot of refuelers to compensate for the Rafale's high price. We have to buy refuelers regardless of which aircraft we buy. So the only advantage Rafale has is not really an advantage. And the reason for this is we simply dominate the IOR. Look at the map I posted.

    By the time the Rafale-M becomes operational in the IN, it will have to contend with the J-20 in significant numbers. It makes the Rafale-M an extremely bad purchase decision just because it carries two extra bombs or 2 extra drop tanks. We need a real next gen aircraft for the IN. IAF is not in the same boat.

    I'd much rather we buy some Mig-29s now and get the IN to focus on a brand new aircraft that's been purpose designed for their needs.
     
  9. Bregs

    Bregs Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Please do not buy MIG29K or any of Russian fighter now. The desperation caused by the continuous mounting sanctions by West/US has made putin ,opre unstable and they are now playing with Turkey, Pakistan and china even if that means going against indian intrests

    why to give them more defence orders when they don't resolve serious issues of past acquisitions from them
     
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  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    As usual you are commenting without much sense.

    A Mig can't do stand off strikes to even Pakistani land targets, as said by the lack of cruise missiles or long range PGMs and the heavy stations used for fuel tanks. Please don't waste both of our times with undeveloped weapons!

    It also falls short in range, because it carries less fuel (especially if the centerline is occupied by an LDP), same reason why it has less endurance in A2A.

    Add both together and you are forced to make the CBG more vulnerable, because they have to operate closer to the coast for the Mig, just as the fighter itself would be more vulnerable, because of the mainly close range weapons.
    The comparison against China is even worse, because you have to attack a Chinese carrier with the range of Kh35, while a Rafale could use Scalp and we have the same problem again. Moving the CBG closer, flying closer to the target...

    And if you go to compare pros and cons, the Mig certainly falls short on EW, avionics, A2A weaponry, RCS...

    There is no doubt about it being the least capable carrier fighter of the 3, it just suits the best to our STOBAR carriers and offers the potential for more indigenous content.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Some posts are subject to the knowledge of the reader.

    Undeveloped? Dude, go look up the dates of when the Soviets actually made their PGMs.

    You forget that IN will be operating the new Mig-29Ks only after 2024.

    LD functions are handled by the OLS for all Russian weapons. Non-Russian LGBs will come into the picture after the main offensive is complete.

    :lol:

    So Rafales will be entering enemy airspace carrying drop tanks?

    Brahmos-M.

    Active cancellation.
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Of course, you expect the reader to have it. :biggthumpup:
     
  13. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    It's the best CTOL fighter for the moment : agile, long legs, very high loads (specially versus its own weight), nice electronic suite.
    What can impressed them ? F35B or C ? :undecided:
     
  14. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    NO. Only on Charles de Gaulle carrier, with "short" 75m catapult.
    On a 90m USN catapult it will be different.
     
  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    We discussed it many times. and the reason is not catapult but peace time limitations.
     

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