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Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Agent_47, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    lol Saab:

    "We have the naval version of Gripen, which is best in its class" -- What class is this, the class of paper planes designed by people with zero experience in carrier aviation?

    "Experts from America say it is in the 6th-7th generation category." -- what, only 7th generation? So modest! You should claim the 20th generation already, IMO.
     
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  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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  3. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Charles de Gaulle: Success of the passage to the whole Rafale
    © MER AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU


    This was one of the major challenges for the deployment of the Charles de Gaulle in the eastern Mediterranean, with a first-ever shipment of Rafale Marine following the withdrawal of the Super Etendard Modernized (SEM) service last summer. Fifteen years after its commissioning in 2001, the French aircraft carrier was able to operate in the configuration for which it was designed. Whilst a mixed airplane group of 8 SEMs and 18 Rafale (record number until then) was on board during the last Arromanches mission from November 2015 to March 2016, this time there were 24 Rafale to With the addition of two E-2C Hawkeye airborne aircraft and four helicopters, including a Cayman Marine, another important innovation since the French NH90 had not yet been integrated into the GAE. "This is the first time since the Charles de Gaulle is operational that the embarked air group is constituted as this tool had been imagined and thought. Today we reach the full power of what we want to do. Compared with previous deployments, the delta lies in the very large difference in power projection capabilities of the Rafale, which has a range, a carrying capacity and sensors well above the SEM, while Being versatile, "recalls the commander of the Embarked Air Group (COMGAE), Captain Jean.



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    (©: NATIONAL MARINE)

    The possibility to embark 30 Rafale, or even more
    The transition to the "all Rafale" was a real challenge and a number of bad tongues felt that the Charles de Gaulle would have difficulty to implement and support so many aircraft of this type. But after two and a half months of intensive operations against Daech in Iraq and Syria, the challenge was more than met. "I have never doubted that it could work, but we have demonstrated it. With 24 Rafale, we have a hyper-fluid system that works very well, "welcomes the commander of the carrier group . And Rear-Admiral Le Bas, who recalls that the Charles de Gaulle was initially designed to implement 40 aircraft, said "sure we can get up to 30 Rafale, or even more". One opinion shared by the COMGAE: "30 planes it does not make me absolutely not afraid! "He said, while Charles de Gaulle's Commanding Officer, CV Malbrunot, was equally confident:" 30, we can certainly do that and I think we can go beyond Organization. In any case, we are perfectly at ease with our 24 Rafale, our 2 E2-C and our Cayman. "



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    Aboard the Charles de Gaulle in the eastern Mediterranean (©: MER ET MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)

    In fact, the sailors think that it would be possible, if necessary, to embark three complete fleets of Rafale, ie 36 aircraft in total, and about forty aircraft with Hawkeye and helicopters. In the event of engagement in a major crisis or conflict, this would offer a considerable strike force, but it is also appropriate not to saturate the aircraft carrier's aircraft installations or at least not to Of the number, especially since the Rafale's versatility allows it to fill all profiles of missions. "It's a matter of balancing the commitment.More aircraft do not necessarily mean more flights, "comments the COMGAE. "This offers the possibility of massive raids, but it provides more flexibility and less urgency, allowing the technicians time to carry out the necessary interventions and to think more about the management of the park". Of course, the prospect of being able to board more than 30 combat aircraft, if necessary, also depends on the ability of naval aviation to supply so many aircraft. Since the budget reductions largely curtailed the program, the Navy has now only 42 Rafale, of the 46 delivered since 1999 (the M18, M22, M24 and M25 were accidentally lost between 2009 and 2012). We are therefore right of the initially planned 86 and although the program of renovation of the first 10 Rafale Marine, delivered to the F1 standard, will be completed next year, there is no longer in the order of Rafale in progress that two planes The M47 and M48, which are unlikely to integrate the fleets until 2020. Given the fact that maintenance periods, natural attrition over the years and three Rafale Marine are available to the fleet, Squadron of transformation of Saint-Dizier, the park seems clearly undersized.



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    Rafale catapulting against Daech (©: MER ET MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)

    Validate the capacities before the technical shutdown
    Until this problem is solved, which could be the case in the next decade since the Charles de Gaulle has largely revealed itself during the last military engagements of France as an indispensable tool, the navy does with the means Available to it. And already, it was necessary to validate the passage to the whole Rafale on the Charles de Gaulle.

    While on board the aircraft carrier as in the fleets, it had been a long time confident in the aircraft carrier's ability to operate according to its original specifications, it was of course necessary to verify it. Hence the interest of the Arromanches 3 mission, which was not planned initially, the building having to start in September its second major technical stop, doubled by a redesign. A titanic yard that will immobilize it for a year and a half and was eventually postponed for five months. This allowed the French naval group to carry out an additional deployment, which was timely to increase air support for the Iraqi and Kurdish troops engaged against Daech, particularly in Mosul and around Raqqa.



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    (©: MER AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)

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    (©: MER AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)

    Manage the same space with larger aircraft
    The Charles de Gaulle, whose cutting of the first plate dates back to 1987, was designed at a time when the sailors had no feedback on the Rafale, The field of maintenance, very different from that of the SEM. Moreover, not to mention the fact that the Navy still wished in the early 1990s to purchase American F / A-18s while the aircraft carrier was still in its early stages of construction, the Super Standard at Rafale implies a significant evolution in terms of congestion. The new aircraft is, in fact, much bigger than its older one and it is a twin engine, whereas the SEM had only one engine. "We have basically the same number of planes as before but the congestion is not the same. The Rafale is wider and does not have folding wings like the Super Etendard. It was therefore necessary to reclaim space, "explains the captain of frigate Benoît, head of the flight deck and the hangar. At the Pont d'Envol PC, the yellow dogs have, among other things, a very simple means of managing the storage: the plans of the installations on which the aircraft profiles are arranged, at their exact location at that moment. Colored patches are placed on each profile, white or red according to the fleet of belonging, in order to know its exact state (availability, armaments, fuel ...)



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    At the Pont d'Envol bridge (©: MER ET MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)

    Distribution of appliances in the hangar
    The hangar was one of the major challenges for the "all Rafale", because it is there that the technical teams of the fleets ensure the maintenance and repair of the aircraft. Serving the flight deck by means of two elevators, this vast area of 3900 m² is approximately 138 meters long and 29 meters wide, with a little more than 6 meters high under ceiling. It is organized into two half-hangars that can be separated by deploying a large firewall in case of fire. "We used to separate aircraft types. The SEMs, which required more work on the cells, were housed in the rear hangar while the Rafales, immobilized for a shorter period because of their maintenance system, were put forward. Today, we divide the space between Rafale fleets, one at the front, the other at the rear, and complete with Hawkeye and helicopters. "



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    The hangar of the Charles de Gaulle (©: MER ET MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)



    With the departure of the SEMs, everything started with a great cleaning: "We went out and, once the equipment connected to Super Etendard left, we looked at what served and did not serve before reorganizing everything. In order to clear up the space, we put a lot of material on the mezzanines that surround the hangar, which freed surfaces from the ground. "

    Impressive logistics
    It is necessary to imagine that this hangar, doubled with workshops, test benches, stores and bunkers, is a gigantic aeronautical garage, in which the technical teams of the fleets are working, deployed with the planes when the Charles de Gaulle leaves Toulon."We have the same support as the base and to carry out our missions, which last several months, we embark one million spare parts, with 40,000 references, from the pin to the Rafale M88 engine. Supplemented with regular supplies, either by a logistic building or by air. We have all the technical capabilities and human skills to maintain, repair and regenerate aircraft and their systems independently and over time, "says Commander Loïs, Deputy Commander Aircraft Technical Support for Aircraft. "The transition to the Rafale is marked by the fact that these aircraft are bigger than the SEMs. Basically, two Rafale take the place of three SEM. This imposes a certain amount of gymnastics that requires a good organization to manage the priorities as accurately as possible, and thus do not spoil the place ".





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    The hangar @ MER ET MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU

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    The hangar @ MER ET MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU

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    @ SEA AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU

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    @ SEA AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU



    Easy maintenance
    Clearly, planes are arranged according to the actions they must take and the time it will take. Obviously, if the Rafale occupies more space and more engine stock is needed, the departure of the SEM generates advantages: "We have fewer types of spare parts, so we win, and it is the same Thing for support material ". In addition, maintenance of the Rafale changes radically from that of its elder: "The concept of maintenance is different, it is continuous maintenance with diagnostic aids". The new aircraft is equipped with an intelligent system that detects breakdowns, including minor events that the pilot did not know during his mission. When the aircraft is back on the Charles de Gaulle, these data are analyzed and the technicians, who have at their disposal the Mermoz bench (to test the electronic systems of the Rafale) know precisely the state and the potential of all The systems and the interventions to be carried out. As a result, "the troubleshooting is much faster".



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    (©: MER AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)
     
  4. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Continued


    "This plane has reached a real level of maturity"
    With the departure of the SEM and the standardization Rafale, the technical teams of the two fleets of the GAE, since they work on the same planes, can also help each other, which does not prevent a real emulation between the sailors of the "The Furious" 11F and the "Ducks" of the 12F, before "La Glorieuse" 17F, which has just made its transformation on Rafale, embarks in its turn during future deployments. It should also be emphasized that the transition to the whole Rafale is now based on solid experience since the Dassault Aviation aircraft has been in service since 2001 in the French Navy. "We have had Rafale for 15 years so we have an excellent knowledge of this plane which has reached a real level of maturity. It is this perfect knowledge of the machine, which is now at its third standard, and the expertise of the staff, which make it possible to maintain it well, to be reactive, to know the precise batch of spare parts to take ... " , Explains the COMGAE.

    A remarkable availability rate
    CV Jean also highlights the remarkable availability of the 24 Rafales on board. After two and a half months of operation, almost 500 sorties and 2,700 hours of flight for GAE aircraft, the Rafale availability rate is 94% and the Hawkeye rate is over 90%. A level to make envy any air force.

    "With the Rafale, maintenance is a real asset because it goes fast. It is a reliable airplane, easy to troubleshoot, and now has a thorough maintenance. With him, there is no surprise, "adds CF Benoit, who also relies on this asset to maximize the potential of aeronautical installations.



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    (©: MER AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)

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    (©: NATIONAL MARINE)

    Flight deck: multiple configurations tested
    The management of the storage and flow of equipment in the hangar was also doubled by another gymnastics, closely linked, that of maneuvers on the flight deck. Again, it was necessary to reorganize to better manage the parking and the movements of the planes. "On the deck, we manage to put everything without any particular problem. We tested a maximum of different configurations to see what works and what is most effective. We define typical locations around which we will evolve according to needs.There is no fixed pattern, you have to be innovative and use all the available space intelligently. " And the head of the yellow dogs intends to continue tests until the return to Toulon to store a maximum of experience on the spatial management of the whole Rafale before the technical stop of the carrier. "We will then know exactly how many appliances one can store in the hangar and on the next deck of a particular situation and I will specify the configurations that seem to me the most interesting. Our reference document will evolve with new positions of principle ".



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    13 Rafale in front parking (©: NAVAL NATIONAL)

    An amazing game of "Tetris"
    While the hangar can accommodate up to twenty aircraft and the entire GAE has been placed on the deck for aerial shooting purposes, putting the planes in a very small space is often very similar To a real game of "Tetris", especially in the hangar, where the Rafale, of triangular shape, can be stored upside down against each other. And on the flight deck too, there are sometimes amazing configurations. "In particular, we have worked hard on deck returns, testing massive 20 Rafale decks to see how to optimize the space on the flight deck. Among other things, we validated the possibility of putting 13 planes in front parking, while leaving free the oblique track and lateral catapult, "says the commander of the carrier, who salutes" the remarkable work done in symbiosis by the technical teams and Of flight deck ".



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    Commander Malbrunot (©: MER AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)

    The deployment also validated the logistics in terms of armaments, knowing that the Rafale offers a capacity doubled compared to the SEM (10 tons instead of 5). "The capacity of the bunkers corresponds well to what had been anticipated during the design of the aircraft carrier," says CF Loïs. Bombs of 250 kilos, modular air-ground weapons (AASM), Scalp EG cruise missiles and other air-to-air-Mica missiles have been marched since September on the flight deck to be fixed on the Rafale. In addition, there are other systems, such as the Damocles lens designation pod, the RECO NG reconnaissance pod, or the equipment enabling certain aircraft to perform the function of "nanny", that is to say the In-flight refueling of other aircraft. "The system and the teams are perfectly rooted, everything went smoothly. We already had the know-how of the Rafale and, although we have more aircraft of this type on board and their carrying capacity is much higher than that of the SEMs, we keep the same methods and the same functioning because It works, "says the head of the flight deck and the hangar, who notes that this small capability revolution has finally unfolded smoothly. "We had the experience and we were well prepared. In the end, it will not take us more than 15 days to take ownership of this new environment. "



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    (©: MER AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)





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    (©: MER AND MARINE - VINCENT GROIZELEAU)

    The resumption of 2018 in line of sight
    A successful challenge on the basis of which the Navy can now serenely prepare the major technical stop of its carrier. A site that will include the modified aeronautical facilities, which will facilitate the reception of a more substantial number of Rafale. The premises will also be definitively adapted to this aircraft and its future evolutions under the F3R standard, which includes for example the new Meteor air superiority missile, scheduled to enter service in 2018.

    Thanks to the Arromanches 3 mission, when the sailors will take over their vessel, which will have to reintegrate the fleet in mid-2018, the new configuration will make it easier for all the experience gained in recent months. For the Pacha Charles de Gaulle: "It was very important to be able to make this deployment before the technical stop because we were able to tame the operation with a GAE made up solely of Rafale. This allows us to better prepare for the 2018 recovery, having done much more than just work. "





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    https://translate.google.fr/transla...-succes-du-passage-au-tout-rafale&prev=search
     
  5. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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  6. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Evaluation of the MRCBF by Ernst and Young - Eye on Defence April 2017

    Contenders

    upload_2017-4-14_19-24-49.png


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  7. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    There are basically only 3 important questions...

    1) Which fighter is available?

    The Sea Gripen is not developed and with Brazil not having the money to operate a carrier, nobody would develop it. - out!
    The F35 so far was not on offer and even if it would be provided, it comes with high technical and possibly operational restrictions, which makes it a no go for IN. - Out!
    Which leaves Mig 29K, Rafale M and F18SH.


    2) Which one fits to the elevators of the carriers?

    The Mig has folding wings and won't have a length issue either.
    The F18SH has folding wings, if at all the lenght could be a problem.
    The Rafale without folding wings might be unsuitable for Viki and IAC1.


    3) Which fighter is suitable for ski-jump take offs?

    No doubts for the Mig, Rafale offers a similar TWR, which leaves only the F18SH that might need (EPE) upgrades.

    Rafale might be the best currently available carrier fighter, but size issues could be the end for it.
    The Mig, offers commonality, but with the quality problem IN seems to face, not the first choice.
    The F18SH could be the best choice, with some upgrades and considering a possible catobar carrier in future.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
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  8. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Are you sure that Rafale, and F18sh is capable of Ski Jump from the carrier.
     
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  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    All that is required, is enough thrust, otherwise there is nothing specific about it and both fighters are available with upgrade options for the engine (M88 Eco with 90kN and the GE414 EPE with 100+kN thrust). So if additional trust is necessary, we would need to fund the upgrades.
     
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  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Some examples of ski jump / ramp take offs:

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    (Catapult take off with small ramp at the end)

     
  11. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Another question -- Are you sure that Ski jump capable aircraft like Mig 29K is not capable of catapulled or CATOBAR capable aircraft ?
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Not without further modifications of it's airframe and a new front gear, because it has the be strengthened to take the force of the catapult take off.
     
  13. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Or with the operation clearance and certification process after trial and testing Isn't it ??

    Standard process, even the Rafale M was certified and the only non US aircraft to be operated from the US carrier, but other could be used too if certified or got the chance to be operated with the CATOBAR system.
     
  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Rafale was mainly certified for interoperability between French and US navy, not because of the catatult system in general. The same was done by F18s on the French carrier.

    https://theaviationist.com/2014/01/20/hornet-on-french-carrier/
     
  15. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Buzz in the air suggests
    • Gripen's new dual engine deal with IN is dead for the Gripen M
    • It seems so because there was no follow on meetings nor scheduled.
    • IAF was invited "As observer" to this meeting as well bcz the dual Engine Gripen E was also pitched for IAF
    • Naval RFI wont be issued publicly until dual vs single engine internal issue is resolved
    • As said in other posts today, DM AJ and core team are trying to procure 2nd hand hardware like used Mig29s, Mirages and possibly SU30s
    • One big positive that came out from this RFI is a lot of private sector MIC have started to show what they are capable of building to meet IN requirements as well as IAF
    • From the looks of it IN is interested only in existing hardware not some paper planes or concept designs thats why they have already rejected a few designs.
    • This will nail down the actual fight out with only few competitors
    • With the vision of focusing a Safranised Kaveri in Rafale, this will push IN also to wait out and see how is that progressing as well as seek out the possibility of performance improvement of LCA MK2 modified to accommodate the Safranised Kaveri
    • All in all IN air wing wont get any deals in the near vicinity.
     

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