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Multiple Missile Sale To Vietnam Including ToT

Discussion in 'China & Asia Pacific' started by lca-fan, Jan 27, 2017.

  1. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    My responses would be flexible and proportionate. Like for like. That's how you handle China. IF they get funny in the Northeast, you remind them that they have territorial/ethnic/religious faultlines of their own.

    They have armed Pakistan with impunity and played a massive role in Pakistan reaching nuclear weapons and high tech missile capability, they need to understand that tomorrow the same thing could happen with some of their weaker neighbors in East Asia (i.e. Vietnam).

    But China knows India won't punch at its weight, and even before making a semi firm move like this one, it will "think it over twice." China knows it can get away with what it does, so it will keep doing it, until India clearly says enough and imposes a price for China's actions. That is when China will respect India and stop constantly harassing it.

    As for NDA and Pak, they extracted as much mileage as they could from that situation without doing a whole lot on their end. Why haven't we declared Pak a terror state yet? If we aren't going to do it, what do you expect the rest of the world to do? In fact, your argument about Pak and the NDA is actually an argument I would use to further my point, India needs to stop trying to hitch a free ride and waiting for others to fight its battles. Nobody else will handle Pakistan except us or declare it a terror state until we do, and nobody else will take on China for us. Yes we can build a powerful coalition of East Asian states and the US, but India cannot hope that America will handle China by itself, India needs to step up to the plate, and punch its weight.

    Kautilya taught swift, brilliant, and cunning maneuvers and both the development and proper application of strength. Kautilya would probably be ashamed at the lack of strategic acumen and the absolutely lackadaisical approach towards security and strategic affairs which prevails in Indian policymaking and government.
     
  2. SrNair

    SrNair Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Do we have a high level of manufacturing capacity like them?
    Chinese can churn out enough weapons to arm her allies.
    Now Govt chose to do it because now we have capability to arm Vietnam .
    If India had this capability decades ago ,our Govts would have been do that earlier for good.

    In manufacturing India is nothing till now .You can move big cards only if you have capability .

    Pakistan is a next neighbour ,we can handle them only through economy,technological,diplomatic and intelligence .Direct war is not practical anymore.


    Kautilya's famous quote about 'Samam,Dhanam,bhedam,Dennam'
    says his strategic vision
     
  3. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    There has *always* been something India can do, the problem is they were too scared and lethargic. We've had domestic capability for producing high quality warships, we are only NOW beginning to talk about sales to SE Asian countries. We had Brahmos and Agni missiles, and a more than willing customer in Vietnam for a long time, and we simply didn't move on the matter. We kept talking about selling them these things, and nothing materialized for several years, to the point where Vietnam has become frustrated and is going to opt for Russian anti ship missiles since the Brahmos sale hasn't materialized yet. If they still buy the Brahmos now, India should consider itself lucky for not missing out on a sale.

    The truth is, if a country WANTS to do something, they can find a way. If a country doesn't want to do something and is constantly strategically reluctant like India, they can concoct up a million reasons not to do something. "Where there's a will, there's a way" and all that.

    And you are right to a degree. But there are a million steps in the spectrum from covert and subconventional to overt and conventional warfare. And as we saw with the strikes, direct action should not be ruled out either. Pakistan is very easy to handle from our position if we have the will to do it. To a great degree this government has the will, sadly even they didn't follow through with declaring Pak a terror state yet.

    As for Kautilya, again, that quote proves how absolutely embarrassed he would be with us. He preached all out full spectrum warfare through all possible means (overt and covert, unconventional and conventional), but for long periods of our history we have failed to fully apply this quote to our treatment of Pakistan, and by the way your quote applies to ALL enemies, I don't see a lot of "Sam, Dam, Dand, Bhed" going on with China....

    So the truth is we are failing not just ourselves by not punching our weight and utilizing our strengths, we are also failing to live up to our own brilliant ancestors. We are shaming their legacy by going about our defense, strategic and foreign affairs in such a lackadaisical, ineffective way.
     
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  4. A_poster

    A_poster Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    This defeatist attitude reminds me of a man who has taken his balls out and gifted them to his wife to wear as earrings. For ****'s sake, China is not good enough in engineering that it could churn out half-decent quality weapons at a rate with which it could arm itself and its allies at a decent enough pace, and manufacturing surplus in assembling LED television from parts made by western technology does not translate into aircraft manufacturing. There is a reason why China ,even after being world's biggest producer of LCD television wanted to buy Philips LCD division and was blocked by USA from doing so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2017
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  5. SrNair

    SrNair Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Ultimately that wont change the reality that they can supply a lots of goods to Pakistan and another nations with softloan .
    Quality is not an issue ,they are even supplying their Nornico manufactured sub standard weapon in to Iraq and other areas .Do we have such capability ?
    I dont think so .
    At the end they have weapons
    Agni .ok
    But Brahmos is still relying on the propellent that transferred from Russia .And we have a lots of ambitions in there that we need NSG membership ,this that etc.
    You cant stand in two boats at a time .
    Really ?
    Then why should we asked Russians for Talwar class ships .?
    Fact is we have ship building industry but that is already with handful of orders from IN for at least next one decade.

    Even this strategically aggressive NDA took three years for this kind of measure .
     
  6. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    We're going in circles here. If you have convinced yourself that India is so helpless in the face of Chinese aggression and you are content with the current geopolitical situation, then I suppose there's no scope for debate.
     
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  7. SrNair

    SrNair Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    This is not helpless situaton but India's strategic limitations .And on top of that we are a democracy .
    Recently we did something in Mangolia .Dalai Lama's visits etc but the end Chinese squeeze them.
    You know what if India had the power like that of US .We would have been help that nation for long time .

    That is why when you goes for a strategic play ,you should have the capability to sustain it for long time like Russia did in Syria.
    Otherwise entire nation will embarrassed in front of the world and we will lose whatever allies we have
     
  8. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I think what @SrNair is trying to say in essence is....


    1] Yes we CAN arm China's Neighbors...
    2] China CAN arm our Neighbors too...
    3] The Catch here is by the virtue of their Financial, Political and Manufacturing strength....They can arm our neighbors better, faster, and more effectively...


    Is That right @SrNair....
    I guess he is not trying to say we at a '0'...What he is trying to say is that if we are at '5'...Then China is at '7' or at '10'....


    Did I get you right @SrNair ...!?



    Anyway.....What I think is that....

    1] We can't export foreign weapons....We will have to export desi weapons....(We will need explicit permission from the foreign vendors....If we use any of their sub systems....)

    2] Now when it comes to Desi Technology...The Chinese have a broader and in some cases a deeper weapons spread than us....Which give them a bit more flexibility....For example...Look at their SAM's they have a wider variety (SR/LR) and more advanced SAM's...That along with their Financial Capacity to give discounts...And Production Capacity to accommodate external orders.....Will eclipse what we have... But that doesn't mean we should not sell to Vietnam....We just should be ready for..Let's say a weapons deal from China to our enemies...2-3 Times more Deadly....

    3] Btw.... Innocent Question here....We are a part of MTCR now right...
    Vietnam is not....Can we export Agni to them...!? Won't we be flouting some rules!?

    4] As Private companies come into the playing field...And certain DPSU's continue their lathargic attitude....We will be seeing Private Players gaining foothold....As they form JV's and develop weapon with technical input from DRDO....We will see improvement in Production Capacity and Quality.....As underperforming DPSU production will be augmented by Private Production Lines...We will see a increase in Production Capacity....As we get economically stronger and our kitty goes deeper....We will also start making attractive offers and start penetrating more markets....


    PS : We do have tremendous Export Capacity of...Army Trucks... Vehicles and Systems of the Like...We do have a lot of export potential....If a proper and clear export policy adopted..The government can increase our exports.... According to online chatter...RM was targeting 2 B USD by 2018....
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2017
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  9. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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  10. AbRaj

    AbRaj Captain FULL MEMBER

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  11. lca-fan

    lca-fan Captain FULL MEMBER

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    India, Vietnam hold talks on sale of Akash, Brahmos missiles
    Subhash Bhamre, MoS in defence ministry says in Parliament India and Vietnam have held discussions on a range of issues regarding the supply of defence equipment

    PTI
    Rescuing India’s defence spending from oblivion

    “The committee has submitted its final report in December 2016. An internal committee has been constituted within the ministry to analyse the report, identify the recommendations to be accepted and to frame the key action points as well as a roadmap for their implementation,” he said.

    The minister, in reply to another question, said trials on Pinaka rocket were successfully conducted at Integrated Test Range (ITR) Balasore in two phases on 12 and 24 January this year, with the range of 65 km and 75 km, respectively.

    The guided version of Pinaka rocket incorporates Inertial Navigation Systems (INS)/ Global Positioning System (GPS) for the mid-course guidance with an accuracy of 60m to 80m at all ranges. Pinaka has been designed and developed for induction into Army after successful user trials. Two regiments of Pinaka unguided version have already been inducted into the Army.

    “Current trials have been conducted for demonstrating the feasibility of the development of a guided version of Pinaka rocket using the same launcher and ammunition configuration. In the recent trials conducted, the desired accuracy has been achieved,” Bhamre said.

    To a question on whether the air force has a sufficient number of fighter aircraft to maintain its combat edge, he said, it is “adequately equipped” to cater for the threat environment that exists. He said procurement of state-of-art fighter aircraft is on and it includes 36 Rafale jets, Su-30 MKI aircraft while procurement of LCA Tejas has also been approved.

    Bhamre also said Advance Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft will be inducted into the Indian Air Force after completion of design and development flight trials and systems evaluation. “Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) has fitted into AEW&C various indigenously developed Systems/ Equipment. Complete software for all systems have also been developed indigenously, mostly within DRDO,” he said.

    To another question, the minister said, in the past two years, 50,000 bullet proof jackets (BPJ) have been procured for the Indian Army through an Indian manufacturer. Further, the case for procurement of BPJs of quantity 1,86,138 through Capital Route is under Buy (Indian) category.
    http://www.livemint.com/Politics/dZ...-talks-on-sale-of-Akash-Brahmos-missiles.html
     
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  12. Aqwoyk

    Aqwoyk Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    From
    upload_2017-2-8_13-29-13.png
    upload_2017-2-8_13-29-51.png
    ok I use a pirated os .......
    But This new motor is for our 6100km SLBM Imho......... 12T first stage second and third will be smaller hence no more than 30 ton or full missile inluding 2-2.5T payload
     
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  13. Rain Man

    Rain Man 2nd Lieutant POLITICAL ANALYST

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    :tup::tup::tup::tup::tup::tup::tup::tup::tup:

    Totally agree with you.

    See, we could have armed China's neighbours, but we didn't. China could have armed our neighbours, and they did arm them to the teeth. They didn't reciprocate our 'peaceful' gesture, did they? Long back we could have made China think twice before arming our inimical neighbours to the teeth by paying them back in the same coin, that is by starting to arm China's inimical neighbours with comparable weapons that China is giving to our enemies, especially missiles, but we chose to play the good boy who always gets bullied by the a**holes.
     
  14. cuibw99

    cuibw99 FULL MEMBER

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    Congratulations for having Brahmos successfully exported. One thing I am not quite understanding is why Vietnam seeks for Brahmos since it has already bought K300P from Russia. Btw, what does ToT stand for?
     
  15. IndiranChandiran

    IndiranChandiran BANNED BANNED

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