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National Security Guard (NSG): News, Discussions & Pictures

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Gessler, Jan 30, 2017.

  1. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    I'm surprised we don't have a dedicated SFs thread in IDF...so while we develop this thread for NSG (I decided to list it under Army section because NSG operatives are drawn from the IA), we need to develop dedicated threads for Paras (also under IA), Garuds (under IAF), and MARCOS (under IN)...if not go for an entirely new section for all SFs. Tell me what you think!

    [​IMG]

    ++

    To start off, I've been fiddling around with a few options in my mind about how I think the NSG's firearms arsenal should develop in order to meet emerging & future needs. This is just something I'm doing as a pass-time activity, anyone is free to discuss and develop the thread further with picture collections & news.

    ++

    1). The Glock-17 is already used as a standard-issue sidearm for both SAG & SRG operatives. The Glock is a modern, light-weight & reliable weapon which pretty much ensures that most anti-terrorism/law enforcement officers can't ask for more.

    [​IMG]
    Glock-17

    2). A topic I covered in another forum a while ago...I frankly don't see why we are sticking with the Franchi SPAS-15 auto-shotgun. While I only occasionally see the SPAS in action, I believe it is used for door-breaching and other CQ situations, as any shotgun should. Downside of this weapon is that it is heavy, blocky and offers little in the way of customization...like for instance the addition of fore-grips, scopes or lasers. Which is what leads me to suggest that the NSG move on to something like the Benelli M4 (or an equivalent Remington/Mossberg/FNH shotgun) which offers all that's mentioned above...plus having a collapsible stock and a much wider array of aftermarket parts to choose from.

    [​IMG]
    Benelli M4 (this Super 90 model doesn't have the collapsible stock)

    3). A far more important issue is the requirement to replace the 9x19mm sub-machine guns used by both SAG anti-terror operatives and SRG close-protection details. Namely the HK MP-5A2, MP-5A3, MP-5A5 RAS and the suppressed MP-5SD3 & MP-5SD6. Also the short MP-5K.

    [​IMG]
    MP-5A5
    [​IMG]
    MP-5K

    The most ideal replacement will be the MP-7A1 with it's 4.6x30mm ammunition, also from HK. The 9mm is relatively ineffective against armored targets, and while the possibility of encountering a BPJ-wearing threat is relatively unlikely compared to an unarmored target in the midst of many civilians...I for sure don't want to see a situation where cross-border infiltrators decide to take advantage of this and present the SAG with a tactical disadvantage. With incidents like the Pathankot attack behind us, the occurrence of this kind of fully-equipped infiltrators might be increasing in likelihood in the future...especially in the border states (Kashmir, Punjab, Gujarat & Rajasthan).

    [​IMG]
    MP-7A1

    While a simple suppressed MP7 is available to replace the MP5SD-series, I would like to discuss a little bit about the use of suppressed weapons in an NSG hit (a 'hit' is a 5-man team). I was looking at a few South Korean Army patrols and something interesting I noticed was that the guy leading the patrol was equipped with a suppressed K7 SMG. The logic here is possibly that, in an operation where stealth is paramount, the lead operative/first-in guy when entering a room being equipped with a suppressed weapon allows for a higher chance that the stealth is maintained even if the said operative is forced to discharge his weapon.

    I would think a specialist organization like NSG need not necessarily conform to the rules of commonality/on-field interoperability as a traditional infantry force would. Which leads me to suggest a possible extravagance...the Honey Badger from US-based Advanced Armaments Corp. (AAC), chambered in the .300AAC Blackout (7.62x35mm) ammunition. The Honey Badger comes with an integrated, detachable suppressor, is based off the AR-15 platform, and the Blackout ammo offers a significantly better stopping power than the 4.6x30, allowing for that first-in operative to much more quickly and effectively put down the threat.

    [​IMG]
    Honey Badger

    Downside would be that the HB would not be as compact as an MP7.

    4). Moving on to the main assault weapon...a role currently fulfilled by various versions of the SG552, SG553-series from SIG-Sauer of Switzerland. The SIGs chambered in the standard 5.56x45mm NATO are good, reliable & effective weapons. However they have their cons in the form of being far less customizable than a standard AR-15-based design. This segment gets nowhere near the level of concern from me as the 9mm SMG department gets.

    [​IMG]
    SG553

    But I do feel that within 2020, NSG will have to move on a to a true Adaptive Rifle and make use of the flexibility they offer (wrt to length, caliber, aftermarket components & attachments, etc.). What I want to see is a 5.56x45 Assault Rifle and a 7.62x51 DMR based around the same action. The AR version to replace the SG552/3-series and the DMR to replace the SG550-1 semi-auto sniper rifle.

    The options I am contemplating are the HK416 + HK417/G28 combo, the ACR family from Bushmaster (which isn't currently available in 7.62x51, but can share the .300 Blackout, or go with 6.8 SPC), or a Colt Modular Carbine derivatives from US suppliers. I know that I've previously expressed concern about buying from Germany due to that country's ultra-pacifist policies and, to an extent, dubious double-standards, but what the heck, the 416/417 are a great system.

    [​IMG]
    ACR
    [​IMG]
    ACR DMR
    [​IMG]
    HK416
    [​IMG]
    HK417

    The NSG currently maintains a wide range of weapons in it's AR arsenal including M16s, AR70/90s and some AKs, mostly for weapon-familiarization and training purposes. Curiously, there is a lack of Bullpups in their arsenal. A number of Tavor X-95/MTAR-21s introduced into their armory wouldn't hurt...especially when various CAPFs in the country are already using them. The X95 is a compact weapon and the NSG must definitely train with it, pit it against the AR-15 types and see the results.

    [​IMG]
    Tavor X95

    5). Nothing much to say about precision rifles really...as far as the SG550-1 goes, I've already mentioned that a DMR that shares design & components with an Adaptive Rifle would be the best replacement. I would think that the bolt-action Barrett M98B that has already been inducted in .338 Lapua caliber would sooner or later replace most of the duties performed by the 7.62 semi-auto HK PSG-1 which was in service since before the 26/11 times.

    [​IMG]
    SG550-1
    [​IMG]
    PSG-1
    [​IMG]
    M98B

    Aquisition of a 12.7x99mm (.50BMG) anti-material/heavy sniper like the Barrett M107A1 is something I'd like to see...though I'm not sure about it's possible applications in NSG's operations.

    [​IMG]
    M107A1

    6). Negev 5.56 LMG and the Minimi 7.62 MMG/GPMG are excellent support weapons and are unlikely to need any replacement in the foreseeable future.

    [​IMG]
    Minimi 7.62
    [​IMG]
    Negev

    @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @MilSpec @Picard @Agent_47 @VCheng
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
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  2. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    I think you have said this yourself elsewhere but what I think is a more suited weapon for this role would be a sawn-off shotgun. This would allow the breacher to have a primary assualt weapon with the shotgun on a strap to be used only when needed.

    I do think the NSG should transition all HIT members over to a heavier calibre (5.56mm) as their roles expand and threat matrix. Now with their reach to every corner of India and greater responsibility (ie Pathankot and possibly in the future in specific anti-Naxal ops) the chances that they will be in an op that requires greater reach and or the need to take down an opponant with armour are higher. Post 26/11 the NSG had understood this and hence every assualt HIT has 1-2 operators with the SIG-553 now but in another Pathankot type incident you would want all your guys to have full assualt rifles, not SMGs given the nature of your ops.

    Although their counter argument would be that they train to take headshots only and given their specialised role they are almost only ever operating in close quarters where the MP-5/9mm works best. I also think in their hostage rescue role they are fearful of over-penertration.

    I would have liked to see the HK-416 for this role but Germany has blocked the sale of all weapons to non-NATO members so I don't think HK is able to make such a sale, this also makes me wonder what the NSG will do in the near future as their older MP-5s come up for retirement.

    This is actually exactly how the NSG operates:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    I think the NSG particuarly likes the fact that their DMR and assualt rifle for HITs are from the same family so any replacement would have to be a family of rifles also.






    NSG has a long way to go but I am quite confident they will go all the way.
     
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  3. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    Yes, I did contemplate the use of two shotguns to replace the existing SPAS-15. A sawed-off pump-action Mossberg or something fitted with a saw-tooth standoff breacher attachment (this would be extremely compact & very light, and can be swung over/clipped to the side or rear of the breacher once it has served it's purpose. After which he would switch over to another primary weapon) and a semi-auto shotgun for target engagement. The reason why I thought the breaching shotgun itself cannot serve both purposes (or vice-versa, full-length shotgun serving both purposes) is because I assumed that the breaching weapon would be loaded only with slug-shot (or the specialized ammo designed to destroy hinges/locks without causing much unintended damage to whoever is on the other side) while the assault shotgun can be loaded with the plain-jane 00 Buckshot which can provide effective penetration against intended targets at a respectable range.

    So it was a safety-first idea.

    Also, my idea of a breaching shotgun is one with a very short barrel, which could hinder accuracy when compared with a full-length type like M4. Plus, I would prefer the assault shotgun to be semi-auto & not pump-action...but compact auto shotguns are hard to come by.

    Ofcourse, Buckshot itself can effectively open any door for you, but for some reason I thought that'd be the more rowdy way of going at it.

    [​IMG]

    And obviously, all this is considering SAG would place as much emphasis on door-breaching as I think it would...they could just go with an M4 fitted with a standoff muzzle and get it over with (a far more straightforward & cheaper way). I had also thought of the M26 MASS attachment on AR-15-based rifles. But when I revisited the idea, it seems out of place.

    To ALL non-NATO countries? Wow I hadn't heard of that...I did hear they stopped sales to KSA though.

    Edit: So I guess the ACR family could have some potential? Although the US-based AR-15/AR-10 developers themselves could have more than one family of weapons ready if we so want them to.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
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  4. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    Fair point, given the nature of Indian doors (tend to be pretty secure with multiple locks and made of steel) the NSG actually massively favours explosive entry. Breaching with shotguns or other means (rams and such) is more common in the West where they have wooden doors with a simple lock and twin hinge. A breach in India would be pretty ineffective using just a shotgun.


    Heckler & Koch will seal deals only with 'green' states that are democratic and free from corruption and are members of NATO or partners of NATO members the company said as quoted by the agency.

    The move will rule out defense contracts with Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Brazil, India and even NATO member Turkey. The gun maker has reportedly assessed those countries as 'yellow.'

    https://www.rt.com/business/368548-heckler-koch-no-supply-non/


    A damn shame but more fool them, the Indian market is about to boom and they are going to miss out massively.

    The reason why HK (with the HK-417) didn't take part in the DMR trails recently held by the IA.
     
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  5. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    Exactly! And wow, what a clean chit they've given to NATO states...which are god's paradise where no corruption or wrongdoing can ever happen!

    Seriously, f*ck Germany and f*ck HK.

    We held DMR trials for IA?? When did this happen? Damn I must be sleeping under a goddamn rock...which rifles participated?
     
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  6. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    Germany has lost it, they have gone full r*tard, enacting libtard policies (open door policy to refugees and these weird bans), a few years ago they tried banning HK from selling MP-5s to Indian CAPFs because they were "involved in human rights abuses" in the anti-Naxal fight.

    Happened in the last quarter of 2016 and was reported by PSK and Suarav Jha, don't have specifics on who took part but one can expect the usual (IWI, Colt, FN etc)
     
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  7. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    Meanwhile, this happens in Pakistan with POF-built G3s.



    Wonder what HK (which probably considers itself an angel that lives in a plane of existence that is entirely above other Western manufacturers like FN, SIG or US makes) has to say about this?
     
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  8. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    SIG 552 Commando is the best.
     
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  9. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    HK is an independent business entity....They have the liberty to chose their customers....(They must have carried detailed studies of impact on their sales performance and revenue....)

    Even if this move results in tremendous loss of revenue for the Company.... What's it got to do with us..!?
    Why should we bring their policies in the debate...!?

    Let them do what they want....The Outcome....Good..Or Ugly will be borne by them...And them only....
     
  10. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    While the Bushmaster ACR remains an interesting option as far as modular rifles go (together with Robinson Armaments XCR)...a system directly based off the AR-15 platform remains my favorite. The Colt CM901 modular rifle system can be an excellent alternative to the HK416/417 family. The 901 comes in a variety of barrel lengths, calibers and the family includes carbines, full-length ARs and a DMR.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    @Abingdonboy
     
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  11. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    NSG Seeks to Quit VIP-Protection Duty

    [​IMG]

    New Delhi, Jan. 30:
    The National Security Guard (NSG) has urged the home ministry to relieve it from VIP security and pointed out the country's elite commando force was originally raised to combat terror.

    Senior NSG officials argued that it was 'unfair' to deploy the specially trained black-clad commandos for VIP duties as the job was being performed by the paramilitary forces.

    "We have requested the ministry to relieve the NSG commandos from their duty of guarding VIPs. It defeats the purpose for which the force was established," a senior NSG official said. He expressed concern at the increasing number of leaders being accorded VIP security under the Narendra Modi government. "In a report to the ministry, we have highlighted how the number has gone up over the past few years - from 332 in 2012 to 470 in 2016," the official added.

    Last month, the Centre expanded that list, adding 10 leaders, including BJP MP Sakshi Maharaj, who had once described Nathuram Godse as a "true patriot". The NSG was raised in 1984 following Operation Blue Star and the assassination of former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. Another force, the Special Protection Group (SPG), covers the Prime Minister, former Prime Ministers and their families, Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi Vadra and her family. The President has his own guards. "The mandate of the NSG is to focus on counter-terror operations but they (the commandos) have been used as status symbols by politicians. We expect the government to relieve them from VIP duties," said a senior ministry official.

    At present, the NSG protects 16 VIPs, including home minister Rajnath Singh. The rest are guarded by the CRPF, ITBP, and the CISF. VIP security now has four categories - Z-plus (38 guards), Z (24 guards), Y (11 guards) and X (2 guards). On average, VIP security costs the exchequer nearly Rs 380 crore a year. Sources in the CRPF, the country's largest paramilitary force, said they were also finding it hard to provide cover to more VIPs because of a staff crunch and sought the home ministry's nod to recruit more personnel. "During a review four months ago, the Centre had said it was considering implementing the recommendations of a group of ministers (GoM) in 2002. But nothing happened after that," said a CRPF official.

    A recommendation of the panel was that the Central Industrial Security Force (CISF) be entrusted with VIP security. The GoM had also suggested that the NSG, ITBP, CRPF and other agencies providing VIP security be relieved from such duties so that they could concentrate on the tasks they had been created for.

    "The government provides cover on the basis of assessment of threat to some individuals. The security provided is subject to periodic review based on which it is continued/withdrawn/downgraded/upgraded," junior home minister Kiren Rijiju had told the Lok Sabha last year.

    https://www.telegraphindia.com/1170131/jsp/nation/story_133263.jsp#.WJlAE_k2uUk
     
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  12. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    I am now also believing that use of ARs and carbines will increase within NSG hits and use of SMGs might decrease (an observation put forward by @Abingdonboy first).

    Anyway, looking around for an alternative to the HK MP7A1, with a new cartridge as a replacement for 9mm MP5, I've arrived at two possible options. One is the ST Kinetics CPW, which is basically a 9mm weapon but according to STK, can be easily converted to either the 4.6x30mm (MP7 ammo) or even the 5.7x28mm (FN P90/Five-seveN ammo). Downside is that the CPW isn't a really well-tested firearm.

    [​IMG]

    Another option isn't something that's readily available, and assumes a lot of things. I've been thinking and we have to admit that the 5.56x30mm MINSAS used by our JVPC/MSMC submachine gun carbine (currently under trials) will have much better stopping power than the 9x19mm parabellum used by the MP5 variants. However what I'm unsure of is just how reliable the JVPC is or can be. The quality of construction and frequency of stoppages etc. of infantry weapons often is not as per what's required by weapons used by special forces. Making a somewhat specialized JVPC (essentially make a 'SOCOM' version out of it) is not impossible if ARDE/OFB took some initiative.

    [​IMG]

    I've also hit upon other ideas like adopting the FN P90...but I think it might be too heavy/powerful and it might be a better option to just go in with a AR carbine in that case.

    Tell me what you think, guys. @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @randomradio
     
  13. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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  14. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    Simplest solution would be X-95 IMHO
     
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  15. nair

    nair Die hard Romeo Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    It is high time NSG stop protecting these netas...... The problem is most of them use this as a tool to show off their might..... Wonder would harm jayalalitha (when she was alive) I guess in that matter Kerala is best.... The CM get a pilot and an escort vehicle which keep changing from station to station..... and these guys are armed with a pistol......
     
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