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Navy MMRCA News & Discussion

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Dilemma, Aug 14, 2010.

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  1. Dilemma

    Dilemma Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Do we really need another MMRCA for the IAC2?

    The reason why the Indian Navy is going for a plane other than the Mig 29K for the IAC2 is that it will use a CATOBAR configuration. My personal opinion is that the IN should ask RAC MiG to develop a catobar variant of the Mig 29K to be ready in time for the IAC2 which is atleast 10 or more years away. Why? Well, the IN is already operating the Mig 29Ks and not to mention, the Mig 29k is fairly advanced considering its capabilities and it fulfills the navy's requirement. Even the Russians have decided to replace the Su-33 with the Mig 29Ks and are saying they might build more carriers.

    Agreed that there are other more capable planes on the market with cutting-edge technology but will the navy really need it? Moreover, there is no point in sending RFIs to planes that are still on paper, namely the naval Typhoon (they should call it 'Hurricane') and the Sea Gripen. Better would be to make a catobar version of the Naval Tejas.

    What do you guys think about it?
     
  2. AVADI

    AVADI Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I for once think the same thing when it comes to Naval Air power with the current procurement and the procurements in the future would easily beat the rivals air force so we should keep the platforms to that of Mig 29k and NLCA we should wait for NFGFA or NAMCA for the 5th gen AC in our Naval Air Force no need any over priced American stuff(F35).
     
  3. prototype

    prototype Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    well if they want to replace 29k,it would be then better with NFGFA(if developed),though f-35 is a good option,their is no need of gripen also,since i think LCA is their,it will b fairly an equivalent version of GRIPEN
     
  4. Desi Jatt

    Desi Jatt Captain ELITE MEMBER

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    IMO LCA naval version will be best suited (if timely ready)...but F35 is surely a no no...its just a real waste of money.
     
  5. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Mig 29 is not the way to go on the IAC-2. We'll be operating these carriers not only in arabian sea or bay of bengal but also in far away areas where we haven't spread our influence as of yet. A powerful navy is a prime requirement now. The current aircraft carrier is just a sitting duck today. It can still be operated for another 10 years but unfortunately the aircraft are in really bad shape and in no way can take on the JF-17s. Even Mirage III and Mirage V will be a tough fight for them.

    An aircraft carrier is as advanced as its aircraft. For Vikramaditya and ICA-1 we're going for mid range aircraft like NLCA and Mig-29. We need something high end for the final carrier. Something that can take on the Karachi port and wouldn't need air force's support. I would love to have around 10-12 F-35s, just to have that extra edge but IN isn't going to go that way. A naval version of Typhoon or Rafale would do brilliantly. That will ensure complete air supremacy in air as well as over water.

    One thing we need to understand is that our ACs wouldn't be used as a defensive weapon. They would always be on the offensive. Pakistani naval ships would never come to bomb Mumbai, we'll be the ones to go and set a blockade on Karachi. So our ACs should have aircraft capable enough to take on the PAF's aircraft like F-16s block 52+, JF-17s etc.

    A NLCA won't be able to take on the F-16. The Mig 29s would be evenly matched, but with support of ground units PAF will have an advantage. So it becomes mandatory for us to induct 4.5 gen aircraft which are more capable than the PAF F-16s.

    In our previous wars, our AC could never play an important part in combat since our aircraft weren't capable enough to take on PAF, which is why we deployed it on the eastern border in 1971. What use is an AC which doesn't take part in the war? Thats my opinion.
     
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  6. Dilemma

    Dilemma Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I agree with your above point that even with BVR capabilities, the subsonic Harrier is no match for the F-16s and JF-17s. But we are talking about the Mig 29K here. The IAC 2 is atleast 15 years away from induction if things go as per schedule (being very optimistic here). In that time, I'm sure the IN will look for some upgrades to the Mig 29K and can ask RAC to develop a CATOBAR variant. With AESA, upgraded avionics, etc. the Mig 29K will be in the same league as the Rafales and the Super Hornets. Agreed that there are somethings in the Rafale and the Super Hornet that make it unique, but they come at almost twice the cost. I feel the MMRCA decision will have a big impact on the Naval MMRCA if the planes selected are either the Rafale or the Super Hornet as the Navy would prefer interoperability with the IAF.
     
  7. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Look at it this way.
    Today Mig29K is a good plane. Its not an excellent plane. Its just a good plane. When IAC-2 gets into service in 2025 or so, it would be like inducting new Jaguars into service today. It doesn't make sense. Even today, when there is no platform for Mig29K, the enemy has planes good enough to give them a good fight. Till the day we get the carrier, the enemy will be fielding almost 60-70 F16block 50/52. Also don't forget the Chinese Navy. They are working on an AC and they will be fielding some potent heavy aircraft.

    Mig29K is a carrier variant of Mig29M, which was developed 3 decades back. So in 2025, it would be 45 years old. That's ancient isn't it?
    The defense forces always buy the best and latest, so that 10-20 years from then, it doesn't become obsolete. Look, we bought the Su30 in 1996, it was a new heavy fighter then, one of the best. Because it was the best then, it is still one of the better aircraft after 14 years of service and will remain a high end for another 15 years.

    The French operate Rafale on their carriers, US operates F-18, and will soon add F-35, China is going to operate J10B, and so in 2025 we just can not afford to operate an aircraft that is near its end of life.

    So we will need to buy either Rafale, naval Typhoon, sea Gripen, or F-35 for the IAC-2. Even F-18 won't cut it in 2025. We might even have to look into some other aircraft that haven't even materialized yet.
     
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  8. Dilemma

    Dilemma Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I get the point now. Now my hopes are pinned on the NLCA. I sincerely hope, that when it goes into production, it will have an AESA radar and either the EJ2000 or GE F414. Forget Kaveri, I'd be very happy to see it on the AMCA. The only thing I don't like about the LCA is its weapons payload of 4 tons and its range. That is nowhere near to the payloads of the Rafale and SH which have almost twice the payload and range. I just seriously hope that the IAF and the IN pick the Rafale as their MMRCA winners as the French are going to keep the Rafales in service for a pretty long time, almost 2040.
     
  9. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Yeah. I too hope LCA comes with a powerful radar and a powerful engine. I am not a fan of indigenous goods. If we can make it good, but if we can not better go in for quality imported goods than to rely on inferior indigenous equipment. LCA is already late by a decade. It needs to be out by 2011. Later blocks should be ready by 2013.

    I am not too disappointed by the payload of LCA. It is a small plane and 4 tons is good enough. It can carry 8 R-77s and still maneuver like a bird. The heavier attachments are usually bombs and fuel pods. LCA won't be used for bombing. Also fuel pods are not required on LCA as it can carry enough fuel to shoot down a plane in Afghanistan and then come back. LCA would be used as a point defense fighter and it doesn't need to carry huge amounts of fuel for that.
     
  10. Naren1987

    Naren1987 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    @JJ
    70 F-16Cs?
    :unsure::unsure:
     
  11. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    18 F-16 block 52
    14 additional F16s ordered
    35 F-16 A/B being upgraded through MLU
    4 F-16 A/B upgraded to AM/BM

    Total - 71 F-16s
     
  12. Dilemma

    Dilemma Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I'd be seriously disappointed to see 20 years of R&D just going in to make a point-defense fighter/interceptor. If the LCA Tejas does not take up the roles of the Mirage 2000 after sometime, I would consider all the time and money spent on the program as a waste. The Mayawi, AESA, TVC engines (if the EJ2000 is chosen) make a very promising future. Using all of this potential just for an interceptor does not make sense. The Tejas should be a multirole fighter with emphasis more on ground attack (just like the Mirage 2000).
     
  13. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Tejas is capable of bombing missions, but when we have aircraft like MKI, using LCA for attacking ground targets doesn't seem feasible. A ground attack aircraft needs to be big so as to carry bombs and fuel so as to strike deep inside enemy territory. If LCA proves itself as a good point defense fighter, I would happy. AESA, TVC, Mayawi are still far from today. We can only wish all of it would be integrated which is unlikely.
     
  14. Take-iT

    Take-iT BANNED BANNED

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    How many planes does an AC hold and how many does india have on order ? interesting since you cant house all those on the shores of goa as of now which base is the IN preparing for the MRCA
     
  15. Take-iT

    Take-iT BANNED BANNED

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    let me stick out ny head and ask a few queries about the last page mig29k vs the rest debate

    last page were discussing the block on karachi and how PAF would be supplied by ground troops so will held the edge i get the point but if you follow the recent development the IN is going in for a powerfuk ground based radar system on its sea costs which will support any offensive mission in the recent neighbourhood i am not talking about india going to attach mexico here but just pakistani port close by
    any combat offensive taken by the carrier battle group will be supported by IN KEW and ground bases systems i cannot recall the radar name but recently there has been such a development of purchasing 4 of these huge ground based systems.

    i dont know how much the ground support will help but in case of offensive missions there is no way that you lead a carrier group with incapable fighters
     
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