Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

New rifle ready, but Army holds fire

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Agent_47, Jun 5, 2017.

  1. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,635
    Country Flag:
    India
    Kerala Police ordered the Ghaatak in 7.62x39 Kalashnikov.

    @Ankit Kumar 001 - The 7.62 INSAS is already being trialed by Nagaland Police??
     
    SrNair and Ankit Kumar 001 like this.
  2. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    2,591
    Likes Received:
    4,845
    Country Flag:
    India
    Already tested.
    Trials were " un impressive " and fell short on a number of " critical requirements" including accuracy , recoil and reliability.

    Its more like INSAS => Excalibur [Automatic INSAS] => 7.62 NATO auto matic.
     
    SrNair and Gessler like this.
  3. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,635
    Country Flag:
    India
    :(:(

    @Abingdonboy @MilSpec
     
  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,901
    Country Flag:
    India
    Let me rub it in a bit:

    M4s were rejected by Indian Army!!

    So were Tavors.

    Impressed by Galil though, in trials. I guess it is being offered by IWI in MII? It does have a 7.62 x 51 variant (ACE 52)
     
    uoftotaku, SrNair, nik141993 and 2 others like this.
  5. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    2,591
    Likes Received:
    4,845
    Country Flag:
    India
    Do you think HK417 would be offered ?

    It can be a good contender.
     
    SrNair and Hellfire like this.
  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,901
    Country Flag:
    India

    It is not the question of what we think, it is the question of the offers made by companies and the results of evaluation.

    I certainly would like to see all companies presently engaged in manufacture of a 7.62 x 51 platform, respond and participate. If the OFB product wins after beating the competition, I would be very happy as that would open up the market for export too.

    However, learning from the experience of INSAS, IA would be testing them roughly this time - no more can we afford a weapon fit only for test use.

    The Punj-Lloyd-IWI combo of establishing a plant in India was a masterstroke. It may be indicative of what I was referring to - of Galil doing well in IA's trials last time round.

    Mind you, I got the input first hand from the formation under which it was being conducted.
     
    SrNair, Bloom 17 and Ankit Kumar 001 like this.
  7. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Country Flag:
    India
    If I remember correctly, last time only OFB 7.62x39 passed all the trials including mud bath firing - a test in which all other rifles failed and than IA decided to go for 7.62x51 gun. I am pretty sure that even 7.62x51 of OFB will be a winner again unless IA does to it what they did to MBT Arjun. Sabotage.
     
  8. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,901
    Country Flag:
    India

    No idea about this aspect as the weapon was not tried in comparative trials. I have not been a part of the team, so would be difficult for me to comment on either aspects.

    However, the member who was on the team wherein Excalibur was also taken for field trials, found Excalibur being beaten by Galil SAR. They had been able to push out M4s quite early too. Details not shared with me due to 'sensitive' nature, however, due to the delay and subsequent withdrawal of the plan to induct 5.56 mm, the same has not been revisited yet (the comparative trials).

    In 2011, it was finalised that induction of M4s for Offrs and JCOs (?) and Tavors for NCOs and ORs was almost reportedly finalised, after feedback of same from SF usage
     
    SrNair likes this.
  9. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Country Flag:
    India
    Galil had failed the mud bath and water bath test
     
    SrNair and Hellfire like this.
  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,901
    Country Flag:
    India
    The analysis remains that a 7.62 x 51 will likely penetrate a body armour as being worn by all militants/terrorists as also the regular militaries around the world. This will negate the duplication of inventory.

    At present, 7.62 x 39 is easily stopped by the BPJ and BPP in use by the IA.

    That US has also decided to shift to 7.62 x 51 is interesting. There was a report about a month or two back of increased US - Israeli - Indian coordination on commonality of weapons and platforms (starting with Infantry weapons), I do not remember reading that in detail, so the finer points am not aware of.

    The same may be incorrect and I may be posting about some other coordination.
     
    SrNair and Agent_47 like this.
  11. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,901
    Country Flag:
    India

    Can you source this one please?

    Because, as far as I know, and I do know about this one, Galil is in use by SFF (SG) since as early as 2000. And as personally told to me by the member of the trials team, and the user (a SG officer), it has had absolutely no issues in either desert/swamp or even after a brief 'submerging'.

    So, a reverse 'spiking' of results?
     
  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,901
    Country Flag:
    India
    This is what I found on Ghatak 7.62 x 39 mm

    http://defenceupdate.in/ghatak-deadliest-assault-rifle/

    http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/08/idn-take-deadly-ghatak-762x39mm-assault.html

    The trials were by CAPFs under MHA.

    Also, CAPFs have relied on systems other than INSAS

    http://indianexpress.com/article/in...rs-ak-rifles-to-insas-bulk-purchase-on-cards/

    http://www.deccanherald.com/content/441460/ak-47-x-95-replace.html

    The lamest excuse - Ak-47s and INSAS can not be compared as both have different roles!!1 :D

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...eplacement-of-insas-rifles/article7839813.ece


    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...al-forces-government/articleshow/48375690.cms


    However, apart from BG roles (Border Guarding), CAPFs have largely (not 100%) withdrawn their INSAS and backloaded them from all CI/CT operations zones. Instead, X-95s, Tavors, AKMs, Vz-58s, MP-5s, M-4s have been issued to them.
     
    SrNair and Agent_47 like this.
  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Country Flag:
    India
    I stand corrected. The Israeli gun was Galil ACE-1.
    http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-indigenous-excalibur-115090300012_1.html
     
  14. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Country Flag:
    India
    Ghatak was tested by IA and found fit for induction. Then suddenly they had this new brain wave of 7.62x51 and the procurement was stopped.

    On his visit to the Rifle Factory, Ishapore (RFI) on Tuesday, Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, the infantry director general, put the prototype Excalibur through the "water" and "mud" tests, in which the rifle is fired after being fully immersed in those substances. The Excalibur handily passed these tests, which all four foreign rifles had failed to clear.

    Kulkarni is also learned to have suggested certain ergonomic changes, which would make the Excalibur more comfortable for jawans to carry and fire.
     
  15. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,901
    Country Flag:
    India

Share This Page