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New rifle ready, but Army holds fire

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Agent_47, Jun 5, 2017.

  1. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    cud be its ACE-31 which has been called ACE-1 in the article I quoted. This article is authored by Ajai Shukla who himself is an ex infantry officer. I don't think he will go wrong on such a basic thing.
     
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  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Sir Excalibur and Ghatak are different platforms. The former is 5.56 x 45; the latter 7.62 x 39 mm

    I can probably tell you why 7.62 x 39 mm has also been revised. This was due to a feedback from 'grass roots'. Few soldiers (old timers) took to carrying 7.62 mm 1A1 (held in sector stores) for getting a sure 'kill' through a body armour. A 7.62 x 39 mm can be stopped by our standard BPP and BPJ from a distance of 15 meters, but 7.62 x 51 mm penetrated it at same distance in same conditions.

    This, in the backdrop of few BPJs and BPPs being 'snatched' and being used by terrorists/militants during their operations.

    This is one basic rationale which may be behind the issue. Obviously, most of the brass at top today is the one who has grown up on the 7.62 x 51 mm cartridge, and now realises that the future conflict is asymmetric and will not use conventional forces en masse. Hence, requirement to kill and not maim (especially in CI/CT operations as arrested militants are a liability to try and punish).

    Just speculating here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
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  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Oh, he will go wrong on lot of things. I have had 'interaction' with him way back in 2006-07.

    He was, after all, the part of the Track 2 team which suggested withdrawal of Indian Army from Siachen unilaterally in 2012.

    :)

    As you posted the comment yourself, Lt Gen Kulkarni suggested 'ergonomic' changes. I would read this with Gen Suhag's unilateral decision to induct Excalibur while it was being designed just immediately after Modi's MII initiative was announced (for reasons best known to him; just like he unilaterally 'contributed' 1 day's salary of every Officer, JCO and Jawan of Indian Army in the wake of J&K Floods and kept quiet when same happened in Assam on a larger scale a few weeks later. That Army took up arms against his decision and shortly it became 'voluntary but when COAS says voluntary it means an order' and majority refused to pay even a rupee, so the decisions under him are.... er, to be taken with a pinch of salt?), whereas the MHA rejected the same during the period and went in for purchase ex-India!

    Er ... is he not ex-Armoured Corps?

    And I believe he went AWOL?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I have really no Idea. I always thought he was from Infantry.
     
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  5. Fox

    Fox Supreme Overlord FULL MEMBER

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    I believe India could approach H&K and ask to trial the HK417, but H&K itself has said it's focusing on NATO, within many countries are currently switching primaries and lucrative contracts are up for grabs, so it's unlikely they'd respond to a global tender floated by the IA. There's also the issue of sensitive German arms export laws, which is, coupled with a shift towards a NATO-centric sales view, a major reason H&K didn't respond to Pakistan's rifle trials.

    If a large order came up I don't think H&K would reject it though, but the IA would need to approach H&K.

    It sure can:D.

    But to be honest I really don't like it used as a primary with a short barrel. It's a damn good weapon, but having used it during my service it always felt more appropriate as either a DMR or sniper rifle, and we do have short barrel versions for vehicle self-defence teams.

    [​IMG]

    But being a large, heavy rifle with an equally large and heavy round, I've always felt this is its best role.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
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  6. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Whatever be the reason, I just want indian stuff to be tried and given same treatment during trials as the imported products. Let the best one win. We have ruined our nation by importing even waitresses from abroad.
     
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  7. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Sir.

    This was the hint where I wanted to convey that when you quote Col Ajai Shukla to me, know that I know of him quite well.

    I have tangled with him quite a lot a decade back, so, when he puts out a report, try and find out which company is he fronting for!

    In India, OFB/Defence PSUs are the scapegoat wherein a tender to a foreign firm is scuttled by it's rivals on backs of 'Defence PSUs and Indigenisation' and after years of delay, emergent procurements are made at greater costs as Defence PSUs never fail to disappoint.

    It is one big money making party.
     
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  8. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    That is why I said, I won't be able to comment as comparative trials have not been held.

    This time, all will be pitched in a comparative trial. Let the best win. Either ways, it shall be a MII project.
     
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  9. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    German Export Controls are and will not be a problem. It has been assured to India.
     
  10. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I am thoroughly impressed by the 6.5 Grendel performance. My next build is a 6.5 grendel, in my opinion it would have made an exceptional round on either a AR or an Galil/AK type platform as an infantry cartridge. It would have given massive precision and range advantage to LOC flareups, but to me it seems IA is just being cheap to consolidate on OFB 7.62x51 nato tooling.

    And if 7.62x51N is the choice, just build more modernized FAL's with the imbel styled rotating bolt, SLR L1A1 have passed all the IA trials previously.
     
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  11. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    HK417 /6 are short stroke versions of the same AR15 receiver based design.
    MCIWS is Long stroke versions of the same AR15 receiver based design.

    If we are going with an Ar15 receiver type design, why are we going into HK417... Why not just get that stupid MCIWS operational
     
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  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    @MilSpec

    I seriously have no clue what the GoI is thinking now. Lot of uncertainty and lot of speculation, that is all. No one knows exactly what is going on, and I prefer it that ways, it shall allow for a level playing field when the 'leaks' are shut down
     
  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The very nature of the JOB of NSG is such that It can't use weapons with potential for collateral damage. Powerful guns with such high velocity can cause lot of damage. So NSG uses either low velocity, high weight bullets or precision guns. ARs by their nature are designed for mostly long range, hard kill ops and stopping a person by sheer momentum of the bullet fired is not their job. Its not just NSG but no such counter terror force tasked for urban combat, uses such weapons. It is for this reason the SWAT in US even use 12 bore guns.
     
  14. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Sir.

    You are sooooo wrong on this (?)fact.

    FN Herstal F2000 is the standard weapon for SPG, you can google the pics of SPG with PM. Suggest you do a muzzle velocity check for Excalibur and FN F2000. You shall be surprised :)

    FN Herstal 2000: 900 m/s
    Excalibur: 900 m/s
    Amogh: 700 m/s
    Ghatak: 670 m/s

    By your logic ( a seriously flawed one) Ghatak should be brought in? And if the Assault rifles are not 'accurate' so what the hell are we inducting it in army for? To tickle the enemy with? Or scare them to shit their pants? (They wear Kahkhi anyways :D) Or do you mean to scare them enough with near misses to make them die of heart attack?

    And you expect CQB, an everyday affair for IA, to be fought with this weapon and for a PM, who is not ever going to face a situation of close combat support in his lifetime, the best? What crappy logic, sir?

    I mean peddling BS is understood, but in India, it is becoming a norm. I am yet to find any instance where OFB product was better and Army rejected it charge by even you, to be substantiated. Just because Army can not and will not disclose it's notings publicly, does not mean every Tom, Dick and Harry trash the armed forces left, right and centre!

    The reason is only one. MHA, in it's own trials, has found these weapons not at par with those being provided by external/private players. The BS apart, if you look at their orders, it is for 3000 pieces only. This, they will pass onto outfits in BG roles. All CI/CT are either with AKMs or MP5s/Tavors/M4s etc.

    As for NSG, I really do not want to comment on their weapons too much as they and SFF hold every conceivable weapon in their inventory.

    INSAS mk 1a and 1b have 3 round burst max. Very accurate, there is no denying this fact. So, chances of a collateral damage are nil as any three round burst will give me a spread of 4 inches at 100 yards from an INSAS. At 2 round, it reduces to 1 to 1.5 inches, depending on wind and exposure of the route to the same. Why not use that? :D

    http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/08/idn-take-deadly-ghatak-762x39mm-assault.html

    The media 'hype' is being created as Defence PSUs are under threat. Hence you find selective leaks and 'pressure' from some quarters to induct a few numbers to justify the large staff and infrastructure producing defective equipment and ammunition arbitrarily.

    This is where the so called 'left bashers' fail miserably, proving their hollow credentials as trolls only. There are Trade Unions in the Defence PSUs. With the present threat by GoI of perform or perish, suddenly they have been activated by the "left" to ensure the core support of the left is not lost. Where else will Left gain if not from such acts?

    With the threat of imminent cutbacks in staff at Defence PSUs for non-performance and trimming of the proverbial fat in the offing, there is a desperation amongst this lot. Free market economics are not in their interest. So far, they lived an assured job life, minimal performance and assured post retirement benefits. Now, that is going away.

    Desperation is resulting in these half hearted measures. Even your own quote of Lt Gen Kulkarni says clearly that he suggested ergonomic changes! That is the most serious indictment of the product itself!

    Have you EVER heard any Flag Officer call a piece of equipment, where the Government of the day has invested a lot of political capital, a piece of crap?

    I certainly have not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    You probably did not read my full post. I never denied that NSG does not carry high power guns. They have specialised weapons for specialised jobs. Regarding use of high caliber, low velocity guns, we in IN have this philosophy that we use only 1911s and 9mm smcs in the confines of the ships to avoid collateral damage as the bullet even after going thru a person will not cause much of damage due to very low residual velocity.
     

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