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New rifle ready, but Army holds fire

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Agent_47, Jun 5, 2017.

  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Sir.

    I shall repost your quote suitably highlighted.


    For the very first line, what is the difference of NSG and IA in urban setting, except for specialised counter terror(read hostages)/counter hijacking (read hostages)? The nuances remain the same, only due to the sheer size of India, and inadequacies of the Police Forces at times, greater asset allocation has been done for NSG.

    For IA, in valley, similar tasks are being undertaken by SF/Ghataks/Company Commanders of RR/regular units in built up areas. Due to higher force levels in Kashmir, they do not need as much specialised equipment nowadays. Even the Unit level Ghatak has fibro-optic devices for room entry/clearance operations .

    The JOB remains the same, limit potential collateral damage (means engage at smaller ranges aka CQB, fire discipline to be maintained aka double tap or single shots only) and to 'rescue' hostages, if any. (It happens in Valley too, where at times, children are put in front by terrorists/militants while firing on security forces).

    So, how do the weapon requirements change?

    As for your point over muzzle velocity, I have already clarified the untenability of that as an excuse. Ghatak should be inducted forthwith into SPG :D

    And precision guns are required even for CI/CT operations in built up areas of valley, so why should army not get 'precision' personal weapons? So that collateral deaths occur and the troops are sent to jail? What a counterproductive logic!

    We use shotguns in RR too. It is the most inaccurate weapon with maximum potential for collateral damage :)

    Now your specific post here:

    Regarding use of high caliber, low velocity guns, we in IN have this philosophy that we use only 1911s and 9mm smcs in the confines of the ships to avoid collateral damage as the bullet even after going thru a person will not cause much of damage due to very low residual velocity.

    IN used the same standard weapons as IA aka FN SLR 1A1 and Sub Machine Carbine 1A1 and 2A1 through the 60s to 90s and shifted to INSAS after that along with SMC. Along with 7.62 mm GPMG and 7.62 mm LMG.

    It is not as if you had any great choice or option. Post 2000s, today we see even IN carrying M4s, Tavors, MP5s, INSAS (SMC having been withdrawn by and large and backloaded but still in use) etc. And this is in addition to procurements for MARCOS.

    So, I would not attribute it to being the reason as stated by you above.

    My contention remains, why flog Army over it's weapons criteria? Was not GoI best suited to ensure an Indian product by ensuring a product that could be inducted into SPG? If the highest office in the country would have been protected by an INDIAN product, I doubt anyone would have dissented. Yet we find MHA not looking to OFB for it's requirements, and members here, including yourself, flog IA for refusing to accept weapons refused by Police Forces. Then ex-servicemen lament the fact that Armed Forces are being treated shabbily. Armed Forces readily accept crap which even Police does not accept and if anyone counters, publicly they will hurl accusations of corruption.

    Bloody shame, that is what it is!

    Why is it that only Army is the test bed for indigenisation? Why is it that CAPFs are getting non-indigenous go-aheads after refusing to place INSAS orders and going for foreign products? Why is it that Police forces all over the country are arming themselves with Colt/H&K and NOT Amogh, Kalantak, TAR, Ghatak?

    Have you ever mused over the fact that OFB and Defence PSUs provide a sizeable chunk of employment to people in the country, and that any move that displeases it, will result in loss of votes? Have you ever wondered what would be the course if SPG inducted Kalantak, the Micro Assault Rifle of OFB?
     
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  2. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Armoured Corps
     
  3. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    @Hellfire @PARIKRAMA any idea who Kalashnikov will tie up with? Or any other front runners?

    Have bought Punj Lloyd at 20.7
     
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  4. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

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    The terrain is the real issue here ,only we have a treacherous mountain ranges in North known as Himalaya,that happened to world largest .
     
  5. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

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    But now we use Tavors for our SF .Right?
     
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  6. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

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    German weapons are just at another level.
    I dont know why our ,even private sectors ,cant develop weapons and technology like them.
    Be it Car ,pencil etc Germans have classy products
     
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  7. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    SF uses M4s for Officers and Tavors for PBORs as a general rule. Obviously their catalogue of weapons is quite broad
     
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  8. HELLBENT

    HELLBENT FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    drdo 7.62mmx51mm assault rifle during trials

    the rifle sports all metal magazine, wish they go for insas type magazine to reduce weight and for convenience
     
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  9. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    @PARIKRAMA @MilSpec @Hellfire @Gessler @Abingdonboy

    Exactly same , the reasons I mentioned Nagaland Police Force rejected the new 7.62x51 rifle.

    And the reasons for which Army has now rejected it.

    1. Excessive Recoil
    2. Reliability.

    http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/for-se...rifles-made-in-india-rejected-by-army-1715267
     
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  10. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    I had said then only, we should not expect anything good , when a state police force is rejecting the gun.
     
  11. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Can someone tell me why are we not just building Metric Pattern FAL's, Haven't they already passed all trials and stuff.
     
  12. Anish

    Anish Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The recoil of a gun is always a result of bullet mass/shell mass and bullet velocity/shell velocity. The gases do play a part but not so much. This recoil needs to be sent to ground from the gun. This is done either by the firer using his shoulders or mounting the weapon on some kind of support base.
    The larger the weight of the bullet/shell and larger the velocity, larger will be the recoil. This is the very basic mathematics behind recoil. You need to increase the amount of charge/explosive to get a desired velocity for a given weight of bullet/shell. In old, front loader cannons and guns, the range was varied in two manners, one was elevation and other was by varying the charge amount.
    If Indian Army says that recoil is excessive, they need to ask themselves, "do they know the basics of a Gun". We were taught all this during our Gunnery School in Indian Navy. How can a 7.62x51 bullet have a recoil equivalent to 5.56x45 with a range of 500yards? Someone in IA is not using his brain or they just don't know what they are talking.
    Any gun which fires a 7.62x51mm bullet of equal mass and velocity will have same recoil value. The only way to reduce the recoil is to either use muzzle break or use recoilless rounds.
     
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  14. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    Gas is useful though - a bit of it goes back to help propel the bolt into picking up a new round.
     
  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Yes, that is one way the gas is used. same gas can also be used to lower the recoil force using a muzzle break which allows part of gases to be directed backwards.
     
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