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No India invite to Pope, Catholic clergy says: Embarrassing, hurts

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by Agent_47, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    THE TOP hierarchy of the Indian Catholic clergy has expressed disappointment over the fact that Pope Francis’ tour of the subcontinent starting Monday does not include India. The Pope is scheduled to visit Myanmar from November 27-30, and Bangladesh from November 30-December 2.

    The Vatican announced the schedule in August, and the Catholic cardinalate and ecclesiastics and their associations in India, were in touch until recently with the government to bring the Pope to a country where Catholics constitute the third largest group, with about 28 million followers. But they were not able to obtain a commitment.

    Bishop Theodore Mascarenhas, Secretary-General of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India (CBCI), the permanent association of Catholic bishops in India and which oversees all Catholic churches in the country, said: “It was with a heavy heart, we received the news that the Holy See cannot visit India. This is not vis-à-vis just Catholics in the country, a Holy Visit would have been a prestige for the whole country in the eyes of the world. It is indeed embarrassing that the Pope is coming to the neighbourhood, and visiting two smaller countries and not India. As an Indian, it hurts that the Pope will not be coming here. I hope it hurts all Indians, too.”

    The previous papal visit to the sub-continent was in January 2015, when Pope Francis visited Sri Lanka for the canonization of India-born priest Joseph Vaz.

    Consultations and dialogue for the papal visit began in earnest a year ago, when Pope Francis declared in October 2016, on the papal plane on his way back from Caucasus in Azerbaijan, that he would “almost certainly” visit India and Bangladesh next year.

    The Pope’s remarks had come after the visit of External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj to his office in Vatican City when she had gone to Rome to attend the canonization of Mother Teresa in the first week of September 2016.

    According to protocol, a papal visit is a state visit as the Pope is the sovereign of the state of Vatican City, and it is de rigueur that India sends an invitation to the Vatican as the Pope will be the guest of both the President and Prime Minister.

    Archbishops and cardinals of important Catholic associations like Conference of Catholic Bishops of India (CCBI), Federation of Asian Bishops’ Conference (FABC), and CBCI, had formed delegations to meet then President Pranab Mukherjee and the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) to clear the dates of the visit.

    However, apart from meeting the Prime Minister, they returned without a commitment from either office.

    Archbishop Thomas Macwan, the Archdiocese of Gandhinagar, said, “Of course, I’d be joyous if the Pope came to the country, but it is a decision to be taken by the government. Perhaps, the dates were not suitable for the government. But I’m confident the government will take a decision soon.” Incidentally, Assembly elections are scheduled to be held in Gujarat starting December 9.

    The Archbishop of Nagpur, Abraham Viruthakulangara, said it would have been in the fitness of things if the Pope had come and that “it would have been a great boost for the country’s image in the world”. “Look at the size of Bangladesh and Myanmar, compared to us,” he said.

    In June, Cardinal Oswald Gracias, Archbishop of Mumbai, reportedly said that discussions with “PM Modi’s government about the papal visit was taking longer than expected”, and that he “was losing hope about a papal visit in 2017”.

    In August, three cardinals, who head the Episcopal Conference, met Modi to express their “wish” for a papal visit this year and reportedly assured the Prime Minister that “the Catholic Church and the community would continue to support the country’s growth”.

    Bishop Mascarenhas said: “In this climate of vigilantism and murderous lynchings, the Pope would have come as a Messenger of Peace, bringing a salve to the people who are powerless in the face of the forces of hate and evil.”

    The last papal visit to India was by Pope John Paul II in 1999, during the previous NDA government headed by Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

    Bishop Mascarenhas said, “The Prime Minister, Foreign Minister and Foreign Secretary have always met us with the utmost courtesy. They have never said no to a papal visit, only that they are always considering it. I am hopeful the Holy See can visit us soon as we are in continuous talks with the government. A papal visit would be a pride for India and all Indians.”

    The External Affairs Ministry spokesperson did not respond to a query from The Indian Express on why the government did not extend an invitation to Pope Francis. The Vatican Ambassador in New Delhi, Giambattista Diquattro, did not reply to a question on whether the Pope was disappointed at not being able to visit India.

    http://indianexpress.com/article/in...holic-clergy-says-embarrassing-hurts-4956183/
     
  2. Himanshu Pandey

    Himanshu Pandey Don't get mad, get even. STAR MEMBER

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    great that he is not coming... don't want christian angle too in India and it's relations. it's a hindu dominant nation and will remain so and will act so.. a head of 1000 men who practice celibacy and lust after children is of no consequences in new India.
     
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  3. Golden_Rule

    Golden_Rule Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Does not the Pope himself propagate "hate and evil" through conversion and missionaries?

    Mahatma Gandhi called Christian missionaries, "Vendors of Goods". He said " In Hindu households, the advent of a missionary has meant the disruption of the family coming in the wake of change of dress, manners, language, food and drink". "If I had power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all proselytizing". "I resent the overtures made to Harijans." "Stop all conversion, it is the deadliest poison that ever sapped the fountain of truth." Poverty doesn't justify conversion. He also considered missionaries as "a clear libel on Indian humanity."

    It is good to keep the Pope away from India.

    Helen Ellerbe a researcher, writer, and public speaker, has observed in her book, The Dark Side of Christian History that:

    "There has been no more organized effort by a religion to control people and contain their spirituality than the Christian Inquisition. Developed within the Church’s own legal framework, the Inquisition attempted to terrify people into obedience.

    As the Inquisitior Francisco Pena stated in 1578, “We must remember that the main purpose of the trial and execution is not to save the soul of the accused but to achieve the public good and put fear into others.”

    "The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly." - Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900), German philosopher.

    [​IMG]

    Adolf Hitler converses with the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, at a New Year's reception in Berlin. (January 1, 1935)

    (Photo source: US Holocaust Museum).


    One wants to know what the Church under Pope was doing when Hitler sent 10 million Jews first to concentration camps and then to gas chambers.

    The Pope, Benedict XVI has the audacity to read a lecture to India on the rights of the Church to convert Hindus to Christianity. The Pope is a German and one wants to know what the Church under Pope was doing when Hitler sent 10 million Jews first to concentration camps and then to gas chambers. And he now has an Indian Cardinal as an advisor who should know what the Indian constitution says. He couldn't have been ignorant. The Pope also hopefully knows what the Church's barbaric priests did to Goan Hindus for almost two centuries. The inquisition that was responsible for the wholesale destruction of Hindu temples and the cruelty shown to Hindus has not been forgotten. India does not need a Pope to tell it how to run its government.
     
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  4. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Article 25-28 provides right to practice own religion and using this same right Christians appoints the bishops and priests directly from Vatican. When Indian govt. has no say in that and dont regulate control it why is it left to Indian govt to invite pope?

    Why cant top christian body invite pope? and since he is above all the drama and name fame type of materialistic things why does a pope need invitation from govt or head of a nation to visit?

    maybe any christian friend can answer this.
     
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  5. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love IDF NewBie

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    Pope is HEAD of STATE for Vatican. Though he can come without a request, he would have to apply for a visa(which would be shameful for the vatican).
     
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  6. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love IDF NewBie

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    Jabardasti hurt ho jaao.

    If CBCI was so hurt then they should have offered to sponsor popes visa for the good of humanity in subcontinent. Otherwise, make an exclusive visit to India when head of the states are available it's not papal gardens.
     
  7. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    They need visa even after invitation from Indian govt. I dont think if pope apply for visa India will deny it.

    Secondly he is coming as religious leader not as a head of state. If purpose of visit is purely religious why being head of state is an issue? He is not coming here for bilateral visit.
     
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  8. ranadd

    ranadd 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Last I checked, If you hold a Vatican passport, you have visa free with lots of countries. India has Evisa. Even China does not allow that. I think.

    Like it or not Pope is the “spiritual” leader for billions in the world.

    Now no need to show me the reducing number of religious believers, science vs religion etc.

    Head of Vatican and Head of Roman Catholic Church is one and the same. Sort of legal name and public name sort of situation. Any clarification on separation on this just does not apply. Trump’s daughter is in India, what’s her official position? But we know the game. We play it.

    If you see lots of people in west still take office oaths on a bible, lots of countries still have words like God in their governemnt documents and buildings, lots of people still believe in God.

    I am talking about God, religion etc in general. But in west, it mostly applies to Christ and Christianity. No matter what the graphs show nowadays.

    Pope still carries lots of sway in diplomacy. No one wants to say no to pope. It’s like would you arrest snoop dog?? I mean how would that look. :biggthumpup:Yes, they do like their blood and silver as well.

    If he comes and India shows disrespect, it just reflects bad on us. India is still a third world country. We depend on the west, we buy from them, we immigrate to their countries. We need west. If they want, they can take us to dark ages.

    Also, Indians, who happen to be Christians, are inviting him here. I hope everyone here knows there are lakhs of them in Indian military, Indian industry, MIC, entrepreneurs who give millions jobs etc.

    So pope is not going to come without a official invite.

    Give respect and earn respect. Being a Hindu should not mean being a moron.
     
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  9. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love IDF NewBie

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    Pope holds a diplomatic passport being a head of the state. These are not your average passport belonging to a person but to the state.

    I will save myself sometime as I don't want to explain Interstate relations here.
     
  10. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love IDF NewBie

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    Yes if there is visa free regime you do not need visa. But you will be fool of the highest order to think a head of state to fill the "visa on arrival" application to visit India.

    No, Nobody is inviting but they are trying to facilitate the visit as a "State Visit".
    So is Shankracharya. That doesn't get you the state honor but being Head of state does get you that. Just like Ali Khamenei (He doesn't do any visits no more).
     
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  11. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    How does diplomatic passport change anything for pope? He still need to get visa, visa is waived only with very countries and head of states, even Indian PM needs visa for few countries.

    Diplomatic passport does not waive requirement of visa across the board, depends upon bilateral relations.
     
  12. Rajaraja Chola

    Rajaraja Chola 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    So? Why should India feel embarassring. Am sorry. Before every Pope visit articles come out how Christians are persecuted in India and Pope gives us lesson on "religious freedom" which is quite an oxymoron considering the current Pope's havent apologised or called out their predecessors violent orders on wars and conversion of native people. India is already experiencing negativity even without Pope visiting. Our Christians are capable of taking care of themselves with help from Indian Constitution.

    Pope should however visit India. But I would like to keep that interaction once in a decade.
     
  13. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    No, though they tried few times, the one who stole everything from us trying to send us to dark ages is struggling to hold the remaining piece of empire, another one who came to the banks of Indus to fight us just went bankrupt few years back. So no they cant take us to dark ages.

    I never question patriotism of any faith be it Christians or muslims, so stop generalizing. Now if you are done with belittling others can you tell me why the Pope dont listen to lakhs of them inviting him here?

    Why PM of my country whoever he/she is need to invite him to visit when the only thing he want to do is religious? Is there any bilateral at all? Ivanka Trump help us in Washington, can Pope help us with it? Will we have better trade relations with Vatican City? I never saw him lobbying and I am more than sure if you go to him with some problem you are going to get a snub you will remember lifetime so that argument of he holds sway is legit but only with religious people, not with world powers, at least not for us.

    If they manage the religious affairs from Vatican why they need my PM?

    Very uncalled for and I hope you refrain using this language just for a healthy environment.

    EDIT:
    How ironic! The man of god now needs invite from a person who was called mass murderer by them! Karma is a real B***h, you never know when you have to chew what you spit.
     
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  14. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love IDF NewBie

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    On diplomatic passports you can only do diplomatic visits representing your country. Yes he may still need a visa (depending vatican is visa exempted or not). But that would be a diplomatic visa.

    Usually When a head of state has to visit, they get an invitation. If they accept the invitation then they get a formal request by that country's embassy for passport. Visa is provided and hand delivered by ambassador or consulate general at minimum.

    I think you are having problem explaining yourself with this comment below.
    Yes, he can pop up his personal passport. Fill the application with Indian embassy and then wait for the results of his application. If he is lucky enough he will get a visa. and why will he do that?
     
  15. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I recall the time when as a school kid in a convent school the visit of the late Pope John Paul II visit was genuinely looked forward to by all ( can't say about the religion of the peaceful ) . Those were comparatively innocent and less controversial times .

    He may be the head of a state but commands his stature as THE head of a religious denomination . If he we were to go anywhere as the head of state of say a nation like Benin or Guyana he wouldn't even have drawn a yawn .

    The office of the Pope is quite an interesting one from having incumbents who instigated the Crusades to the current primate expressing grave misgivings on the treatment of the Rohingya Muslims while on a state visit to Burma thus sparking of a controversy , the kind the present GoI would be keen to avoid .

    Incidentally while we're on the subject of paedophilia there were quite a few Popes who kept mistresses and sired children - an open secret in medieval times . A good deal of these illegitimate (?) Children went on to fairly successful careers in the Church itself , some proudly carrying on their fathers legacy by siring children and having wives themselves.

    What should be of note to India and the incumbent GoI is the attitude of the Pope during the Reconquista of the Iberian peninsula in the mid 15 th century and ridding it of the Moors and Jews and the Inquisition launched there from the 16 th century onwards and their colonies most notably in the territory of Goa , coastal Karnataka and the Malabar Coast where leave aside the Hindus who refused to convert & were put to death , a good deal of Catholics in Goa who continued with local traditions were subjected to the same fate and best of all the Nasrani Christians ( Syrian Christians ) who were treated as heretics and dealt with accordingly . The schisms that community witnessed continues to plague them to this day all thanks to active meddling in the internal affairs of the Nasrani Church .

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

    Its time this issue is raised and repeated so that the next time the Pope and his local representatives have an attack of conscience they can be shown the mirror to their past .
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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