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PAK-FA 5th Generation Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tariqkhan18, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. lca-fan

    lca-fan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Govt to set up panel to assess viability of building stealth fighter with Russia
    INDIA Updated: Feb 11, 2017 22:17 IST
    [​IMG]
    Rahul Singh
    Hindustan Times, New Delhi
    [​IMG]
    The IAF does not have sufficient number of warplanes to tackle a combined threat from China and Pakistan. The count of IAF’s fighter squadrons has shrunk to 34 compared to a desirable strength of 42, a capability gap the air force is struggling to fill.(HT file )
    A multi-billion dollar Indian programme to co-develop a stealth fighter with Russia faces an uncertain fate with the government deciding to set up a committee to examine what the country gains from the project.

    A top government source said the panel, to be headed by a three-star officer, would look into different aspects of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project and the technology it brings into the country to meet the air force’s future requirements.

    The two countries have been discussing the project for several years but are yet to sign a $4-billion research and development (R&D) contract for the FGFA. India has already spent Rs 1,500 crore on the preliminary design stage (PDS) of the FGFA project. The PDS was completed in June 2013 on the basis of a contract inked with Russia in December 2010.

    “Several things have been resolved but it is critical to assess how we benefit from the programme before making the next move. Design issues also have to be looked into,” the source said. The Indian Air Force wants the stealth fighter to have a more powerful engine as the existing one doesn’t give it super cruise capability.

    A prototype called the T-50, built under the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) project is undergoing tests in Russia. The first prototype flew its maiden sortie in January 2010.

    India has a requirement for 120-130 such swing-role planes with stealth features for increased survivability, advanced avionics, smart weapons, top-end mission computers and 360-degree situational awareness.


















    The ability to super cruise or sustain supersonic speeds in combat configuration without kicking in fuel-guzzling afterburners is a key Indian requirement.

    Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha told HT that affordability is a key issue and “we have to take a call if we want the FGFA.”

    The IAF does not have sufficient number of warplanes to tackle a combined threat from China and Pakistan. The count of IAF’s fighter squadrons has shrunk to 34 compared to a desirable strength of 42, a capability gap the air force is struggling to fill.

    The existing fleet consists of 14 squadrons of ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters that will be retired in phases by 2024. Each fighter squadron consists of about 18 planes.

    The IAF hopes to add more muscle with the induction of French-built Rafales, the indigenous light combat aircraft, more Sukhoi-30s, the FGFA and a medium-weight warplane to be built in India in collaboration with a foreign player.
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...with-russia/story-WnsYzpGt84I1IoqhLRxTPM.html
     
  2. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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  3. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    Looks like IAF's demand has fallen to 120-130 FGFA, this is about right.
     
  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    If you ranked countries by GDP Russia would be 15 and California 12. Russia does not have the technology, or the economy to develop world class advanced air craft..either military or civilian
     
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    That's because California has most of the Indians in America.
     
    SR-91 and lca-fan like this.
  6. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Just the smart ones, the rest stay in India.
     
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    We have plenty more if necessary. Let's make a second California. Support outsourcing.
     
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  8. SR-91

    SR-91 FULL MEMBER

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    Going by your calculations, how would u rate Israel which has 1/4 of GDP against Russia?

    Or even better, how would u rate china comparatively?
    China has the 2nd highest GDP in the world yet they are still buying from Russia, which is ranked #15 as per u, and still have to steal military secrets to get by.
     
  9. mirage

    mirage FULL MEMBER

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    are you a false flager ? Pakistanis use this word mudi instead of modi . i am sure you are .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2017
  10. ranadd

    ranadd FULL MEMBER

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    LOL.
     
  11. SR-91

    SR-91 FULL MEMBER

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    Texas is out-doing California in terms of outsourcing now.
     
  12. PeegooFeng41

    PeegooFeng41 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    If there is no PAK FA then we are in serious trouble, there will be no fifth generation aircraft for us till 2040 then. I believe we will be able to get AMCA working by 2050 at earliest given how good our HAL/ADA/GTRE works.
     
  13. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    There have been recent media reports about India 'reconsidering' the FGFA deal....We might not scrap it all together....But a reconsideration of terms is perhaps deemed necessary by the GoI


    HAL will supposedly start AMCA (LRIP I guess ) Production in 2035 (As officially stated by Cmde Balaji (ADA Chief) in a recent interview) Assuming no delays....We will have '2 AMCA squadron' strength by 2038-2040 (Assuming 3-5 Years to make 36 Jets)

    Now we definitely need stealth jets quicker than that...Since the J-20 is already in LRIP now...And I am sure it will be inducted by 2020....


    So we will need a Stealth Jet by atleast 2025...FGFA/PAK-FA is the only choice we have..... Unless of course....We go to the Americans for the F-35

    IMHO, I guess we would initially buy the PAK-FA... Because as Stated by TS Raju (HAL chairman) we will need 84 months (7 years) of development time after the final contract is signed....If if all goes well FGFA will be in service by 2030 till then it's the PAK-FA for us (or who Knows F-35 !? :lol: :lol: )


    PS : I would love to know the opinion of senior members on when we will get a stealth jet...And which one it will likely be
    @Abingdonboy @Grevion @Agent_47 @lca-fan @Ankit Kumar 001


    References :

    Cmde Balaji Interview :-
    http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/exclusive-indias-5th-gen-amca-targets-2030.html


    TS Raju Interview :-
    http://www.forceindia.net/Interview_TSuvarnaRaju_Feb2017.aspx
     
  14. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Captain Technical Analyst

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    Well much of the news circling around now is made up.

    What I know is, our side wanted some set of clearly defined points.

    And even before that, a engine which was promised originally.

    Russians would start testing their new engine soon. When it gets the primary safety and operational certification , Indian side would be invited to see its performance.

    If the Indian side deems that to be satisfactory , then the negotiations for initial JV contract worth around ~5 billion USD would be inked for development+ 5 Prototypes.

    The other important point raised from our side is reduction in its IR signature, the last time Indian Airforce was conducting exercises in Russia , a team was showcased the PAK FA testing. And briefed too, and the less focus on stealth [reduction of radar and IR signature of the aircraft ] was a sore point.

    But all said, if the engines come .... FGFA would happen. The first pre production / LSP aircraft would start coming by 2026.
     
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  15. lca-fan

    lca-fan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Why India Should Dump The FGFA Project?

    1. [​IMG]
      Like most other Russian projects the FGFA or the PAK-FA is one which was high on promise but low on delivery. The specs for this aircraft promises a lot in terms of technology where the Russians are known to be lacking in capability and even they are unsure about their capacity to deliver. Lets look at specs of the T-50 aircraft which is available in Wikipedia.
      The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customization are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
      Length: 19.8 m (65.0 ft)
      Wingspan: 13.95 m (45.8 ft)
      Height: 4.74 m (15.6 ft)
      Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
      Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
      Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
      Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)
      Powerplant: 2 × NPO Saturn izdeliye 117 (AL-41F1) or initial production, izdeliye 30 for later production thrust vectoring turbofan
      Dry thrust: 93.1 kN / 110 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,300 lbf) each
      Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,600 lbf) each
      Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb)

      Engine
      [​IMG]
      The T-50 uses the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engine with a dry thrust of 93kN.This is quite inadequate. Typically a 5th Generation aircraft with Supercruise as one of the main features should have a engine with a dry thrust of 110 – 120 kN.Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth. The Russians do not possess any proven design for such an engine and even if they come out with one, the result could be similar to that of Su – 30 MKI which has a track record of frequent burn-outs.

      Stealth Badly Engineered
      [​IMG]
      Startling similarities between Su-35 and PAK-FA
      There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites. The air frame contains a lot of joins which is symbolic of poor construction techniques. Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.
      India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.
      Avionics
      The avionics suite as known in public domain is:
      Sh121 multi-functional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)
      N079 AESA radar
      L402 Himalayas ECM suite built by KNIRTI institute
      101KS Atoll electro-optical suite
      101KS-O: Laser-based counter-measures against infrared missiles
      101KS-V: IRST for airborne targets
      101KS-U: Ultraviolet warning sensors
      101KS-N: Targeting pod

      This looks pretty ordinary and there is nothing which stands out as being uncommon or not available in aircraft of similar nature.

      AESA Radar
      [​IMG]
      N079 AESA Radar
      The N079 is based on the N036 Byelka model, different versions of which were displayed at the MAKS airshow in 2009 and 2013.The radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP Institute consists of both X-band and L-band arrays but its performance against leading US models, especially the APG-77(V)2 of F-22A Raptor is unknown and kept secret for obvious reasons.
      Russian Trial & Error at India’s Cost
      The T-50 is the prototype developed for the Russian Air Force under the PAK-FA project. The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customizations are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
      On 25 January 2016, it was reported that Russia and India have agreed to develop FGFA and lower investment cost to $4 billion for each nation, down from $5.5 billion earlier.
      Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks…
      Should it cost $4 billion to make some customization? Informed sources say that it is the cost of development of the entire model and Russia will not invest a single rubble.
      In other words Russia is fooling India to fund the development of its 5th Generation fighter aircraft base model i.e.T-50 which will be further developed by them as per their needs.
      What will India get?
      India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.

      Transfer of Technology Problems
      [​IMG]
      If we were to assume that Russia would develop a new powerful engine for this aircraft, re-engineer stealth and do every other thing to make it a world-class 5th Generation fighter jet one question still remains. Would it transfer technology to India?

      Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks even though India purchased those in large numbers. In the case of Su -30 India placed the first order in 1996 for 50 Russian made Su-30′s.Thereafter several upgrades happened till 2012. On 24 December 2012, India ordered assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKIs by signing a deal during President Putin’s visit to India. This increases India’s order total to 272 Su-30MKIs. Russia didn’t transfer the Engine technology and HAL is dependent on Russia for components to assemble the engine and some spare parts. All this after India paid a whopping $15 Billion to Russia for design, development, CKD’s and SKD’s.

      At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.

      So it is likely that Russia won’t transfer crucial technology of the new fighter jet making India ever dependent on it for components, spares etc even after spending a hefty $4 Billion on so called” design and development”.

      In short the Russians plan is to milk India for the next 30 years, knowing fully well that she needs a 5th Generation fighter jet. The offer of “joint design and development” is just the entry point in their diabolical game plan.

      Conclusion
      Recent news suggest that the talks between India and Russia failed to decide on the S-400 surface-to-air missile system. India has stated that it wants to buy the next-generation air and missiles defense system but Russia wants to link the potential purchase to the PAK-FA deal.

      This suggests that Russia is aware that its bear hug with respect to the PAK-FA deal may not work, so it is trying to coerce India into it using another deal.

      According to India Today, New Delhi has lost confidence in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA effort after Moscow truncated its buy to about a squadron’s worth of jets. The prevailing view within the Indian air force is that if Russia—which is the senior partner—is backing out of the program, then it will be left as the sole operator of an aircraft that largely fails to meet its requirements. Instead of buying PAK-FA, Russia is planning to continue production of advanced Su-30 and Su-35 Flanker variants.


      India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA. In other words, the above is a Russian no-confidence vote against their own product.
      If the Russians are not confident about their own product should we repose confidence in it. The answer is a simple no.

      At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.
      India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.


      Its always better that we spend billions of dollars in training our own scientists and engineers in developing 5th Generation stealth fighter jet technology as it will not only strengthen our defense but also provide jobs to millions of our countrymen.

      Quite rightly the Indian MoD, IAF has expressed reservations over this deal and they should now go one step further to dump it.

      Note: This piece is from IDN archives, found it relevant even now as so much of noise is being made of this project but no clear headway is visible on the ground
      http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/idn-archives-why-india-should-dump-fgfa.html
     

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