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PAK-FA 5th Generation Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tariqkhan18, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. SR-91

    SR-91 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    India will use PAK-FA as a foundation to build a jet for themselves, just like what they did with MKI. It will be another mki in making. What kind of TOT we will get, will largly depend on GOI ability to negotiate. Judging by the Rafale saga, I put my money on MP.
    FGFA is as real as the crack in your back.:bike:

    :LMAO::LMAO::LMAO:
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
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  2. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Aha. IDN.

    The site where the writers stole my Future Indian Navy thread and tried to pass it off as their own creation (thankfully, they took it down once I raised an objection in their comments section). But to be frank I'm coming to expect less and less of the quality of content on that site. Articles like these are just nails in their coffins.

    I simply hate generalization of such huge topics. What exactly is meant by "high on promise but low on delivery"? Promising something and delivering something entirely different? That would depend on what exactly was being promised, and what the person on the other end managed to understand of it (think about it, if this person was the IDN writer, he wouldn't understand shit). Thankfully, the persons making the requirements are the Russian & Indian Air Forces and MoDs...not some blobtit writer with a stick up his arse.

    Or does it mean promising something to be delivered within a set period of time, within a set budget and then not being able to do so? That can be said for anyone - including the Americans (F-35, Zumwalt, LCS, etc.), British (QEC, T26, etc.) and us Indians (pretty much everything).

    Russians known to be lacking in capability. :award:

    If it wasn't for the Russians, the rest of the world (including US, who according to the writer is probably so full of capability that they often lend it to others for free) would have little to no human spaceflight capability right now. The ISS would probably be destroyed due to lack of maintenance and all the astronauts would wish they were dead.

    The writer just scored 10/10 on the stupid scale.

    I'm sure they whispered that in his ear?

    [​IMG]

    How about lets not?

    :****:

    Joint development of what? What exactly is it that India can bring to the table that Russia cannot do themselves? At one hand HAL is yet to bring LCA Mk-1A into service. And so far, India did not sign any joint development contract with the Russians so we did not pay them anything either. So from where does the question of joint development even arise at this point? And if at all a modified PAK-FA is enough to fulfill IAF's requirement, where is the need to develop anything new?

    Can't make head or tail of this writer's argument.



    The existing 117-derived engine is only an interim installment until the Izdeliye-30 is developed. This was known for years.

    But I'm not surprised because searching for logic in this article is like searching for tits on a man (a thin man, mind you).



    That's because it's yet to be proven. Gods help your family!



    Yep. Bad engine, bad Russians!

    [​IMG]



    Don't count the chicks before they hatch.



    I wonder how this writer looks when he's startled. I really do.



    Yes it does. Not to the same extent but it does nevertheless. It's always a trade-off in stealth v/s aerodynamics - you want superiority in one, you'd have to sacrifice the other to some degree.



    Nonsense.

    Never seen or heard anything further from the truth.



    Now, I'm no engineer but all these years I thought joints & rivets were a good thing as they have a tendency to keep things securely in place. :cry:

    Again, it must not be forgotten we're staring at prototypes here and these commonly have exposed fittings (which would be covered up later on with coat of paint and/or RAM). But still improvements are not hard to see even among the prototypes if this guy would actually bother to look!

    And for those who think F-22 has surfaces so smooth that you could spread them on toast!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    Genius!

    Carrying external stores destroys stealth!! Who would have known??? The Americans are a right bunch of fools, too -

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    OR,

    When stealth is paramount, you could choose to not carry any weapons on the external hardpoints! Now, ain't that an idea!!

    Truly deserve a pat on my back, I do!



    The writer can call it his grandmother's head lice if he wants.



    ...and what will?



    Really? What other jet fighter in the world has five radars? One in the nose, two in the sides and two in the wing leading edges?

    The writer is a proper blind bastard if he didn't take that as anything out of the ordinary, uncommon or not present on other aircraft in the class.



    Not sure I buy this N079 business. No one official said it. Let's just stick with the base N036 from Tikhomirov.



    It will transfer the production-engineering knowledge which will enable HAL/private companies to built & assemble the plane inside of India, making use of Indian resources and bringing business & employment to our enterprises - also bringing down the costs somewhat because import of every component won't be necessary. Also any tech/component that were actually jointly developed by any two companies from the two countries will also be available to us.

    However if you're expecting to Russians to simply open up all their blueprint lockers for Indian companies & journalists to plunder - you're dead wrong. Russia won't do that and neither will anyone else who has their mind in the right place.

    In order to acquire the know-how and know-why of developing your own 5th generation fighter technologies through Russia - you'd have to buy out all the Intellectual Property Rights (IPRs) held by all the companies involved. This is the collective wealth of knowledge acquired via decades of trial & error, billions in R&D and million of man-hours of work. Something no one will simply give away.

    But that's not a problem because that's clearly NOT what HAL/MoD are after. We need to be able to produce the aircraft in India and have all the local facilities and infrastructure necessary to operate it to it's maximum capacity. And that's exactly what we'll get.



    Indian MoD (especially under AK Antony) isn't devoid of fault. We failed to place orders for spares & supplies in time, and when we do, bought them from unlicensed suppliers (as was the case with MiG-21).

    Dealings with Russia are far more dirty than with Western parties, agreed. But it takes two to tango and the incompetence & corruption within our own MoD at the time also played a major part in damaging the operational readiness.

    Also, unlike the Russian badly-engineered PAK-FA will all the exposed rivets and gobshit like that...our AMCA is made of superior construction material. Like paper (and that secret stuff that dreams are made of).

    The answer is a simple "you're a blithering idiot".



    We should instead dump this writer into Bangladesh.

    @Abingdonboy @randomradio @PARIKRAMA

    Check out this gem of an article from IDN.
     
  3. ranadd

    ranadd 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I kept imagining you slapping the author one cheek at a time each time your quotes end.
     
  4. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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  5. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    IDF staff do not condone violence. :angel:
     
  6. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    India problem is not technology, manpower or money, even if India receives the complete technology for PAK FA, Rafale or even F35 they are not going to be able to produce a reliable air craft. Transparency International’s 2013 Global Corruption Barometer stated that almost all key Indian institutions were under the sway of corruption. Seventy-one percent of respondents to a survey believed that corruption had increased from ‘a little’ to ‘a lot’. While 75 percent of people expressed that the police force is corrupt, an astonishing 86% of people believed that political parties and their leaders are corrupt.
     
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    HAL ex-director gets 4-yr term for bribe bid
    A special court in the city on Friday sentenced a former director of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore to four years' rigorous imprisonment for trying to bribe a CBI official. The court also sentenced his mediator.
    TNN | Mar 21, 2015, 03.20 AM IST
    [​IMG]
    CHENNAI: A special court in the city on Friday sentenced a former director of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore to four years' rigorous imprisonment for trying to bribe a CBI official. The court also sentenced his mediator.


    Top Comment
    Wow a 2004 Case completed in 2015 and 4 years sentences
    The anti-corruption branch of the CBI had received a complaint from C Gowri Shankar, junior technical officer at CBI's zonal office in Chennai, saying N P Manikandan, general manager, PCS Industries Ltd, Bangalore, had offered him a bribe to produce a favourable report. The matter pertained to an investigation by the CBI in Bangalore in a disproportionate assets case against A K Zutshi, director (finance), HAL, Bangalore. Shankar was providing technical help to CBI officials in Bangalore.




    The CBI registered a case in February 2004 and laid a trap for Zutshi. Zutshi, his son Naveen and Manikandan were caught red-handed when they tried to hand over Rs 50,000 and a mobile phone as bribe to Gowri Shankar. The CBI chargesheeted Zutshi, his son and Manikandan for criminal conspiracy and abetment to accept bribe.



    On completion of the trial, XIII additional special CBI judge K Venkatasamy sentenced Zutshi and Manikandan, and fined them Rs 50,000 each. The court aquitted Naveen.
     
  8. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    HAL employees convicted by CBI for corruption
    • Hindu
    • Bengaluru
    • Wed,27 Apr 2016

    • Summary: The CBI, which took up the case under Prevention of Corruption Act, filed a detailed charge sheet in May 2014. The Special Court of Central Bureau of Investigation convicted M.S. Sanjay, the then Deputy Manager (Methods) and his assistant H.M. Ramesh, the then Assistant Engineer (QC), both working in HAL’s Helicopter Division, in a corruption case. The CBI, which investigated the corruption case against the accused, found that Sanjay and Ramesh falsely certified the quality check receipt of sub-standard equipment and helped the company get the payment, causing a loss of Rs. The court as also convicted K.V.


      The Special Court of Central Bureau of Investigation convicted M.S. Sanjay, the then Deputy Manager (Methods) and his assistant H.M. Ramesh, the then Assistant Engineer (QC), both working in HAL’s Helicopter Division, in a corruption case.

      They have been sentenced to three years’ rigorous imprisonment for favouring a private company. The court as also convicted K.V. Hemanth and B. Damodar of M/s.
     
  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    HAL production under lens after Hawk trainer crash
    Rajat Pandit
    Production quality of the country’s only aircraft manufacturer, defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), is once again under the scanner after the crash of a Hawk advanced jet trainer (AJT) last month.
    | TNN | Jul 6, 2015, 04.52 AM IST
    [​IMG]HAL is tasked with manufacturing 99 of the 123 Hawks ordered from BAE Systems, with transfer of technology, in... Year's 6th crash: IAF losing fighter spirit
    HAL is tasked with manufacturing 99 of the 123 Hawks ordered from BAE Systems, with transfer of technology, in the overall AJT project already worth well over Rs 16,000 crore till now. But the entire endeavor has been marred by politico-bureaucratic apathy, poor long-term planning, flawed multiple contracts and delayed delivery schedules.



    As it is, the crash of an AJT, which is meant to be a robust fail-safe flying machine to train rookie pilots in the intricacies of combat flying, is startling. But what has further raised eyebrows is that the ill-fated Hawk, with a Rolls-Royce engine, had clocked just about 1,050 hours of flying.

    "Holding that HAL's build quality is not up to the mark, Rolls-Royce has downgraded the TBO (time between engine overhauls) of the Hawk AJTs being made by the PSU to 1,200 hours from 2,000 hours," said a source.

    But HAL dismissed such claims. "With the court of inquiry into the Hawk crash yet to be finalized, HAL cannot be blamed for quality issues at this stage. The reduction of TBO to 1,200 hours from 2,000 hours is not true," said a senior HAL official.

    "The engine life roadmap for restoration to 2,000 hours has been provided by Rolls-Royce based on mid-level inspection, and components are getting certified for 2,000 hours," he added.

    But the fact remains that HAL has faced flak over the years for its poor product quality and maintenance as well as huge time and cost overruns in projects ranging from the 16-year-delay in the now-defunct Sitara intermediate jet trainer to the light utility helicopters.
    Recommended By Colombia




    HAL, now faced with losing its monopoly in the domestic aviation sector, and its primary customer, the IAF, have not had the best of relations over the years. But neutral observers say the two urgently need to come together to resolve all outstanding issues dogging the country's air combat power.
     
  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Corruption, absentism sloppy work in USSR used to result in a job transfer to Siberia, in India not so much.
     
  11. GSLV Mk III

    GSLV Mk III Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    2 year old news. Are you retarded or something ?
     
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  12. GSLV Mk III

    GSLV Mk III Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Moderators, please take care of attempts to hijack this thread.
     
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  13. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Very poor writing in that article. Which forum thread or blog did they plagiarize this time?

    Full of dumb arguments showing that the author knows just enough to delude themselves into thinking they know what they speak about.

    Dumb argument #1: "Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth."
    Sorry, but stealth fighters, including the F-22, have afterburners. Afterburners aren't something you use constantly anyway because it consumes fuel too fast. They're used for shorter, takeoffs and for recovering energy during a dogfight.


    Dumb argument #2: "The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered."
    Hard points on the wings are used when you need a larger payload than what the internal bays offer, but don't need a stealthy profile. The F-22 and F-35 have external hard points on the wings too.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Now perhaps the T-50 will be a lemon. I can't claim to know enough accurate info to tell. But if it is, it won't be because of the reasons advanced in that article.
     
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  14. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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  15. SvenSvensonov

    SvenSvensonov MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The center square does make a good point, though:biggthumpup:.
     
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