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PAK-FA 5th Generation Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tariqkhan18, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. CONNAN

    CONNAN Major ELITE MEMBER

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    PAK-FA T-50 2nd Test Flight Russian 5th Gen



    observe the video at 2:32 the under belly is more sleek and stealthy than the first prototype
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2014
  2. CONNAN

    CONNAN Major ELITE MEMBER

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    [​IMG]
     
    2 people like this.
  3. CONNAN

    CONNAN Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Naval variant of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA

    Navalized Sukhoi T-50 PAK FAs to be deployed on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will be deployed on Admiral Kuzetsov and future Russian Aircraft carriers.

    The Fleet Admiral of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov, currently the only aircraft carrier serving as the flagship of the Russian Navy, will be upgraded, the media reported, quoting Navy sources. The aircraft carrier, due to enter in 2012, will be re-launched in 2017.

    The Admiral Kuznetsov entered service with the Russian Navy in 1991 and was used for the operation of deck aircraft, the development of new tactics, including those for dealing with carriers of theoretical enemies.

    In the late 1990s and the early 2000s, it was repeatedly proposed that the Admiral Kuznetsov, which remained inactive for long time periods, be decommissioned and sold for scrap.

    However, an improved situation in the country gave the ship a new lease of life. Her propulsion unit and other equipment were repaired, and she started taking part in various high seas war games more often.

    The upcoming large-scale modernization was motivated by the need to eliminate the ship’s inherent drawbacks and to repair some of her units. Plans for docking the ship in 2010-2012 were discussed more frequently and have now been confirmed.

    The carrier’s air wing is to comprise 26 new Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29K,Fulcrum-D multi-role fighter aircraft, helicopters and navalized Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA (Future Frontline Aircraft System) fifth-generation fighters, currently under development.

    The Sukhoi PAK FA is a fifth-generation jet fighter being developed by Sukhoi OKB for the Russian Air Force.It appears that 15-20 of these aircrafts will be built pending the ship’s re-launching, which is likely to take place in 2020 rather than 2017.

    http://www.defenceaviation.com/2010/12/naval-variant-of-sukhoi-t-50-pak-fa.html
     
  4. CONNAN

    CONNAN Major ELITE MEMBER

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    India chooses Russian prototype for its fifth generation aircraft

    The joint development of a fifth generation fighter aircraft has moved to the fore of Russian-Indian cooperation. The issue was discussed during Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov's recent visit to India. But an important question remains: Which fifth generation fighter are we taking about? The first prototype of the T-50 aircraft built under the PAK FA project is already flying in Russia.

    Fifth generation fighters are increasingly becoming a symbol proving that a country has an independent aviation industry, capable of developing combat aircraft. Only two countries have done this so far - the United States has built its F-22 Raptor and is testing the F-35, while Russia is testing its T-50 fighter. India, which is actively developing its aviation industry, also seeks to develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft, but it cannot start from scratch. Cooperation with Russia is critical to India in this respect. In turn, Russia needs financial support to finish work on its fifth generation fighter.

    Many experts see the T-50 as a very promising program that could become the foundation for a whole new family of combat aircraft, like the T-10 Sukhoi aircraft, which led to the Sukhoi Su-27 (NATO reporting name Flanker) and its various modifications.

    Cost is the key difference between the T-50 fighter and the American F-22, the world's first fifth generation mass-produced combat fighter. The F-22 is far too expensive to become a popular model, and it suffers from the inevitable technical problems of a pioneer. This in addition to the congressional ban on exporting the fighter has made it impossible for the United States to further develop this system.

    The second next-generation American fighter, the F-35, is currently undergoing tests. But the United States has run into problems with this program, too. The United States tried to build a cheaper fifth generation aircraft with the same capabilities as the F-22 but on a smaller scale. The new fighter was supposed to have a smaller combat load and range, slower flight speed and lower radar capabilities. However, combining all these features in one aircraft proved too difficult. Its price tag has surpassed $150 million, which is more than double the initial estimate. There is no indication that the price will go down, and U.S. designers have still not been able to recreate some of the F-22's features on the F-35, such as supersonic speeds without the use of an afterburner.

    The designers have complicated their job by attempting to develop three different aircraft on the F-35 platform - a conventional fighter for the Air Force, a deck aircraft for the Navy and a STOVL (shorter take off and vertical landing) plane for the Marines. As a result, the project is delayed and over cost.

    The designers of the T-50 have taken into account the experience of the United States with the F-22 and the problems with the F-35. Their T-50 program looks more realistic in comparison. They have decided not to pursue too many goals, instead concentrating on the existing, tried-and-tested program to develop a multi-purpose heavy aircraft with a solid safety margin. The T-50 program is bound to be a success, even if one element of the future fighter is delayed, as each element - be it the engines, onboard equipment or armaments - has a backup version.

    It is no surprise that India has chosen the Russian aircraft as the prototype for its Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program. Now that the T-50 is already in the air and passing its tests with flying colors, India and Russia can confidently sign an agreement to develop a prototype on its basis.

    The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

    India chooses Russian prototype for its fifth generation aircraft | Features & Opinion | RIA Novosti
     
  5. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    HAL, Sukhoi T-50 Preliminary Design by 2012; Cost USD 295 million

    2010-12-17 Russia and India have agreed the estimated cost of a design contract for their joint fifth-generation fighter project at $295 million, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Chairman Ashok Nayak said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

    "The cost of preliminary design is estimated at $295 million. The work is expected to be complete within 18 months," Nayak said. Russia's Sukhoi holding and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter jet based on the prototype T-50 design. India confirmed that it had finalized a draft contract at a meeting with Russia in early October.

    Nayak said the contract could be signed by the representatives of India's HAL and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) during a visit by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev to India on December 20-22. The two sides agreed to develop both a single-seat and a two-seat version of the aircraft by 2016, focusing on the single-seat version in the initial stages of development. The costs will be shared equally between Russia and India.

    The first Russian prototype T-50 made its maiden flight in January 2010. The new fighter aircraft is expected to enter service with the Indian Air Force by 2020.

    :: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::
     
  6. Naren1987

    Naren1987 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    India, Russia Formalise 5th Gen Fighter Effort

    [​IMG]
    India and Russia have signed a preliminary design contract (PDC) for their joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme. According to a government statement, "The contract envisages joint design and development of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft with the involvement of HAL on the Indian side and Sukhoi Design Bureau and Rosoboronexport on the Russian side." More later.

    [UPDATED @5.32PM] Official statement: A contract for Preliminary Design of the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft was signed between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi here today. The Project involves design and development of a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft that will have advanced features such as stealth, supercruise, ultra-maneuvrability, highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness, internal carriage of weapons and Network Centric Warfare capabilities.

    The aircraft to be jointly developed is termed Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF). PMF draws upon the basic structural and system design of the Russian FGFA Technology Demonstrator with modifications to meet IAF specifications which are much more stringent. The broad scope of bilateral cooperation during the joint project covers the design & development of the PMF, its productionization and joint marketing to third countries. Programme options include the design & development of a twin seater variant and the integration of an advanced engine with higher thrust at a later stage.

    Today's contract is only the first in a series of such contracts which will cover different stages of this complex programme. The total cost including options and the value of production aircraft will make this the biggest Defence programme ever in the history of India involving production of over 200-250 aircraft.

    The Contract was signed by Mr. A Isaykin, General Director, Rosoboronexport and Mr. M Pogosyan, General Director RAC MiG & Sukhoi from the Russian side and Mr. Ashok Nayak, Chairman, HAL and Mr. NC Agarwal, Director (D&D), HAL from the Indian side at Delhi.
     
  7. Naren1987

    Naren1987 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    COLUMN: An IAF View Of The FGFA Partnership

    The following column, exclusive to Livefist, is by a senior IAF officer, who for obvious reasons, cannot be named. I sought his views on the FGFA agreement and have with a measure of effort persuaded him to give Livefist his views on the programme in his own words. The following piece is the result. The views here are his own, and written in his capacity as an officer of the Indian Air Force. As a matter of detail, he has permitted me to mention here that he is a fighter pilot who has been involved in two major Indo-Russian aircraft programmes in the 1990s. He has also permitted me to proofread his piece but only for purposes of clarity and continuity. His piece, in full:

    At the outset, it should be clear to all concerned, especially the Indian taxpayer, that this "mother of all aircraft programmes", i.e. the agreement between India and Russia to jointly develop and manufacture an advanced fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) will deliver a formidable combat platform. While all development projects have their attendant hurdles, delays and overruns, we as a nation must be sure that the end result meets all performance parameters. As of now, there is no reason to believe that there will be any undue problems in the programme.

    However, it is the idea that the FGFA is a "joint design and development programme" that is troubling to many in the IAF who have dealt with all parties concerned, i.e. Hindustan Aeronautics, Sukhoi Design Bureau (SDB), UAC and ROE. Before proceeding to the ground realities, let us first understand what the FGFA is being projected to offer India over and above the material delivery of a combat platform. It is being projected as a partnership between India and Russia, where both sides will co-design, co-develop, co-engineer and co-manufacture the aircraft. The idea is also that in the course of the programme, HAL's design inputs to the FGFA will spin-off and accrue into an indigenous capability to build next generation combat platforms using strictly in-house resources. There are several other projected benefits of the programme, but these two will suffice for the purpose of this article.

    Currently, the SDB has designed three prototypes (1 flying, 2 ground testbed platforms) which are of single cockpit (i.e. T-50) configuration. The idea of the preliminary design contract signed on December 21 is that HAL will be the design partner for the twin-seat variant of the aircraft. Some facts: The fact that the Russians are now testing the single-seat T-50/PAK FA does not mean that they do not have the necessary design data to fabricate a twin-seat/trainer platform. In fact, it is just the opposite. Remember that the PAK FA programme was initiated in the late 1980s, which means the standard approach of the time was to build aircraft along with a mandatory trainer variant for conversion training as well as squadron service, as has been the standard practice with Soviet aircraft engineering. Furthermore, it is a known fact in the IAF that the SDB has, in a layperson's terms, a blueprint to fabricate a twin-seat version of the T-50. If so, then the purported design inputs being offered from India's side are worth pausing to think about. What are these design inputs? Are they really design inputs?

    Since 2006, ever since HAL had expressed its keenness to co-implement the IAF's custom specifications in the new platform, there has been a debate between the definition of design input and specification/modification input. Let us be clear that the T-50 prototype that is currently flying is the work of years of design engineers from one of the most skilled design bureaus of the former Soviet. This is not suggest that HAL does not have any design strengths, but merely to say that in this particular programme, the space for any inputs simply does not exist. In simple words, even if HAL is partnering in the twin-seat version, their job will involve no/negligible inputs as far as airframe is concerned. A common perception that needs to be corrected is that adding Indian avionics, BEL radar receiver, DRDO weapon systems or composite control surface elements constitutes "design input". It does not. That falls in the realm of custom modification which is basically what IAF/HAL had undertaken with the Su-30 programme in late 1990s. However, in all fairness it must be said that the scope for composites in the airframe holds some innovative possibilities from Indian laboratories. Be that as it may, the design of the platform will not be changed.

    When the preliminary design of the T-50 was frozen some years ago, the IAF provided requested inputs on platform preference. Our inputs basically fell in four categories, i.e. two-pilot configuration, custom sensors/avionics, options for turbofan engine and weapon systems. Additionally, the IAF was of the view that it would be desirable to have a lower empty weight, a parameter which would to some degree be met with composites, and for which work has already begun by SDB. While the IAF team tasked with studying the platform/programme proposal was quite satisfied with the basic design, the above four parameters were crucial for our own future operations and perspective planning. The requirements were duly endorsed at all levels and met with the concurrence of HAL engineers. As far as the IAF is concerned, HAL will not be a design partner in the FGFA programme. For IAF purposes in the project, HAL is a integration/workshare partner that will co-inspect the joint modification study and execute in conjunction with SDB/Irkut/ROE. None of these areas justify the prestigious title of "design and development partner".

    Finally, the FGFA will be a very competitive platform for IAF, and its first stealth aircraft. And India's involvement even at this late stage in the programme is still desirable to just being a customer like in the case of all other platforms barring Su-30 (though in the last also, contribution has not helped us keep cost down). There should be no doubts about the platform itself.

    But to project this as an landmark project that has created history with great dividends for India is too far fetched. HAL is our partner at the best and worst of times. And it is important to remember that the way the FGFA programme is being projected today is as much the play of the Russian side as it is for sections within the Indian defence setup. The Russians have been reliable friends for decades, but it would be imprudent to imagine that there is any element of philanthropy in their dealings with India. If communications between IAF and ROE were ever declassified (like the Wikileaks, maybe some day!), the nation would have quite a different picture of how it is to deal with the Russians. Still, that does not take away from the value of their partnership. Ultimately, the FGFA programme, in my view, is no different from most of the other so-called joint programmes we have with Russia, including the Su-30 MKI.

    To conclude, a few questions which are worth considering: As a "joint D&D partner", will HAL be able to devlop and deliver India's next generation fighter aircraft all by itself? Is India's involvement in the FGFA programme simply as a monetary investor?
     
  8. Coltsfan

    Coltsfan <b>SENIOR MEMBER</b> SENIOR MEMBER

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    I am sure there were elements in HAL and other defense entities in India that may have oversold the technical input India would be providing in the PAK FA project.

    However, to any serious analyst it would not come as any surprise that Indian contribution would largely be monetary and not in the nuts and bolts design of a gen 5 aircraft (esp considering the fact that it was conceived decades earlier).

    Having said that, it is nice to have a healthy dose of reality check lest we get deluded about our indigenous abilities.
     
  9. Dilemma

    Dilemma Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    We always knew the fact that the FGFA will be nothing but a twin-seat variant of the PAKFA. There were no major structural modifications going to take place for the FGFA.

    The Russians have decades of experience in the defense aviation sector and I doubt they'd allow HAL to bring any major (even minor) changes to the design. It took years for them to get to this stage of the design. But still as of yet only the prototypes have been flown, so we need to be open about some changes.
     
  10. Spartacus+

    Spartacus+ Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I am not surprised its a reality HAL engineers have experience of LCA so they can only give 4th generation input in PAK-FA which is not needed. HAL will assemble them like SU-30MKI somewhere near 2025 and frankly if you see local assembling of SU-30MKI gave India nothing in terms of benefits.
     
  11. DaRk KnIght

    DaRk KnIght Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    We got MKI....here I stands for India. Our input in MKI is more than the the total input of Pakistan in whole first batch of JF-17. We have developed what you can only dream of.

    BTW your logic that HAL can only give 4th gen inputs is just laughable. Since China has only developed 4th gen fighter than they can only produce 4th gen components which are not required in J-XX. SO you are getting nothing but Junk again :lol:


    Just for once Think before you write and use same logic everywhere :azn:
     
  12. Dilemma

    Dilemma Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Actually, it did.

    It gave HAL/Indian firms a platform to put Indian subsystems on a plane that is going to form the backbone of the IAF fleet for atleast two decades. The feedback from the IAF pilots/ground support crew about the subsystems is the most valuable thing. All the feedback earned for the last 8-9 years is what will help the HAL/other Indian firms to better their products, and its no waste, trust me. The Indian subsystems are part of the reason why this plane has earned so much attention from the west and European countries.

    If the IAF would not have trusted the Indian subsystems, it would have not asked for a customized PAKFA (FGFA) with Indian avionics.
     
  13. Spartacus+

    Spartacus+ Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I am not questioning Indian sub systems overall benefits for example in terms of cost if you mass produce aircraft at home with transfer of technology it cost decreases with time but SU-30MKI cost is increasing i heard the newly ordered costs $110million per unit.
     
  14. Spartacus+

    Spartacus+ Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I am not questioning Indian sub systems overall benefits for example in terms of cost if you mass produce aircraft at home with transfer of technology it cost decreases with time but SU-30MKI cost is increasing i heard the newly ordered costs $110million per unit.
     
  15. Coltsfan

    Coltsfan <b>SENIOR MEMBER</b> SENIOR MEMBER

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    Are you still talking US $? Mind sharing where you "heard" that news?
     

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