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PAK-FA vs F/A-22 - Analysis

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by jagjitnatt, Jul 11, 2010.

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  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Some research has showen for example that the F22 acts as a force multiplier, If you for example added 100 F22s to a 1000 other combat aircraft, no present or predicted future airforce in the world could defeat them. Plus there is the fact in ten years all manned aircraft might be obsolete. From another stand point smart bombs and increaseing the number of bombs that planes can carry up to 500 percent and even though those bombs will be smaller has been force multiplier of up to 20 times what we had befor. The US just does not need a stronger airforce to take on any thing that is out there. Can you think of any country that will be a realistic threat to US airpower in the next ten years.
     
  2. Mildave

    Mildave 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Some research? Really?

    Every time the US confront the reality within foreign countries they get surprised. They under estimated the capabilities of the Soviet fighters manoeuvrability, HMS, and missiles, they under estimated the capabilities of the Indian Su-30s, they're likely under estimating the PAK-FA...

    The threats are increasing everywhere and the times were the US could go anywhere any-time are disappearing. Because of its debts countries like Russia, China, Brazil, India are likely to fill the gap with the US in the next 10 years to a point were the few numbers of F-22 won't be enough. First you can never have your entire fleet flying, let's be optimistic and say that the USAF can have about 100 front line F-22s. Can you keep them flying 24/24 7days a week? What happen when you start loosing a few to enemy action/accidents? Do you feel confident with the F-35 protecting your sky against everything out there when your F-22 are in front line service covering the very vast Pacific?

    The truth is, despite having entered operational service in 2006, the F-22 still isn't a front line fighter within the USAF. It'll likely start replacing the F-15 by the time the PAFKA enter service, and that alone should tell you something.
     
  3. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Its not the US who's under-estimating the PAK FA: its a select group of overly-touchy, nationalistic "analysts" and the idiots who fanatically follow their every word like its gospel.
     
  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    US has about 6000 manned air craft, 2500 combat planes, the drones carrying radar guided missiles will act as force multiplier for the F22s, Russia has about 1/7th of the US economy so its never going to be a threat, leaves only China. I dont see China as a threat,,,there technology is not that good, they have never as much as won a Nobel Prize, even if their GDP reachs that of the USA they are going to have 2 billion people to deal with. If we see a threat we are going to accelerate production of the F35 or perhaps restart production of the F22. In my life time we have had a few susprises from other countries in the matters of technolgy, Migs during the Korean war, thought the USA kicked ther butts, sputnik,,,,Sams but those were all quickly overcome befor much damage was done. China has been talking about ship killing missiles, but I expect if the Iron Dome works over Isreal, Ageis is going to be able to protect aircraft carriers. Also I have heard US has had some new Laser technology that going to add to that.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  5. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  6. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    I haven't. Nice article.
     
  7. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Let us understand a few things here, can we?
    a) If you do not see China as a threat, game over, no use debating on this thread, lets talk on some other India Vs pakistan thread. China and USA are two big countries and big economies, The global "pie" is limited, now China wants a bigger share of that pie, and so from where does that share go? It goes from the share of other existing shareholders like Russia, Europe, USA and India.

    b) The Rate at which Chinese economy has grown in the last decade if to give an example the Chinese economy has grown at the speed of Jumbo jet, where as the American economy has grown at the pace of bullock cart.

    c) Most things that you see in china, there is high probablity that it is made in China, the production cost in China is low as compared to USA so the US Firms prefer to import it from China as it is cheap and sell it as "Made in America" at high price, so which economy does it help? American or Chinese?

    d) If you see the growth, 20 years ago, Shanghai was almost nothing as compared to New York city (the Financial capital of the world) Then there were many cities aspiring to be "like new york city" now most aspire to be like Shanghai. In past 20 years it first bypassed Hong Kong which was considered by many as the top place in Asia, then it bypassed even NYC.

    e) Americans did a lot of research and development in many and indeed they won many noble prizes, one of the person who got the Nobel prize was Myron Scholes who is made the Scholes Black model for Derivatives. Scholes Black desiged a model which made it easier for a person to decide which shares/stocks to invest in and it did revolutionized the way people invested in Shares, The traidtional investors who invested on a hunch etc became dinosaurs overnight. But seems lately they found (after seeing the present state of American economy) that the model has a limitation, it does not work correctly when the sample size is big.
    And what we have now is America on the brink of collapse with the main culprit being the Derivative market which was actually due to NOBEL prize winner (Please do correct me for this point please, as I do not know how to word this point)

    f) China is one of the most populous country in the world (even after abt 2% of its population is now in USA, but the main thing you should know about China is government. When the Government decides to do something they can do it, So any decision can come to action within a week in China and the same decision can take a month in USA. The Government in China controls the people and military 100% the people are obidient and we have seen what happened in Tiananmen Square, that would not be possible in USA.




    .
    Eew, you missed some points here or maybe you expected and hence were not surprised when,

    a) 2008 Olympics China won the Olympics with 51 gold and america came second with 36 gold

    b) The US vistors to Beijing were looking the Olympic stadium with their mouths open wondering how the Stadiums were built.

    c) When the modern Patton tanks were turned into buring scrap by the older Vickers Valiant Tanks (known in India as Vijayanta)

    d) When the much higher rated Sabre jets which shot down Migs in droves in Korea were shot down by smaller cheaper and almost unknown Folland Gnats.

    These did not surprise you?

    Further, do you know what cost and time it would need to start the reproduction of F-22. it is not bread that you put the dough and you get bread within an hour. China on the other hand are developing and making cheaper but effective planes and one of the example is JF-17, almost similar to capability of F-16 but at fraction of cost.

    If you remember the Germans lost the second world war on eastern front, even though they had better weapons only because the Russians were able to put in more numbers, If you see the Tank Vs Tank The Tiger and Panther did more than match any of the tanks in Action, but the Tigers and panthers were swamped by numbers. where the T-34 came very close to Tigers and that did negate the advantage of the armour of the German tanks.
     
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  8. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Best thing? Folland Gnat would be something that Fighter Mafia (i.e. guys whose theories current USAF brass more-or-less ignores) would simply love. Actually, it's similar to original F16 concept.
     
  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Remember that US tanks were far inferior to the Tiger and Panther also, but remember who lost and who won.

    The bottom line we wont know and we can debate until the crows come home, but we wont really know the results until there is an acutal conflict.
     
  10. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    If you did actually note about the conflict, here are some pointers for you.

    When the Germans started Operation Barbarossa most of the German army was positioned in the Eastern front.
    German Army headquarters were under the assumption that as and when the US-British forces were to make a landing in France , they expected it as Pas de Calais and also that they expected it in good weather and also that their agents would give them an advance warning. But it was exactly to the contrary.

    During 1941 - 1945 most of the German Army's top units and numbers were in Eastern front, and not in Western sector, If you did read about the D-day how much did you hear about the German Air combat sorties over France or Holland after the D-day? And at the same time Aces like Erich Hartmann and his Gruppe JG-54 was shooting down Russian planes en masse, Rudel was destroying tanks enmasse, Which Air support pilot has destroyed the next highest than Rudels 515 tanks ? No one knows.

    After the D-day the Germans army which had sent most of its units on Eastern front, only kept some units in the occupied countries these were usually the units that are there for Rest and Recreation or being fitted with new equipment.

    During operation market Garden when the British paratroops landed in Arnhem, the 2nd SS was there for rest and recreation.

    Let me tell you one story that was told on a NatGeo series about the top 10 tanks. The Sherman driver said that they saw a tiger tank at a distance of about 400 yards and they fired at the Tiger. The shell just bounced harmlessly off the Tiger, and then the Tiger turned its turret and fired. And to the horror of the tank crew, the 88 mm shell entered the tank from one side and exited from the other as if it was a cardboard tank. When the American crew were given the Sherman it was called the Best Tank in America and indeed it was, and when the Sherman started to be destroyed by 1 shell, they knew that their best was not enough.

    You might hear many stories about a single or two Tiger or Panther tank destroying entire column of Allied tanks. The allies won the Western front purely due to air superiority and that the German army was mostly in the Eastern front.
    Can you show me some articles where there are good tank vs tank battle of Sherman vs Tiger or Panther at 1000 yards+ which the Sherman won? I am sure there is none.
    Please do not talk about something you do not know.

    Some people already are calling you names and it is not my style to do that, but I do suggest that you put in some quality in your posts so that the others feel the need to read your post and debate/discuss about it rather than outright ignoring / ridiculing your posts. Further as your nickname says you are supposed to be average american, most of us here are average or above average and some top of their respected nations, but when you represent an average person of a country and you come up with such quality for debates, it is no chance that the the people on this forum start to wonder what is the exact average of an Average American and if you truly represent average American, then GOD BLESS AMERICA, and I am sure he cannot help either.
     
  11. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Odd isnt it how every one allways under estimates America and Americans.

    God Must Have Loved America, by Gene Autry (1941)

    Why would I argue that American tanks were better then German tanks? Can you find any place I said anything like that. Old trick trying to put words in a person mouth and then debateing them. I have never claimed that american tanks were better then German tanks, I had an Uncle that manned a tank dureing world war II

    All over the world I run into people that think they are superior to americans, usually from countrie where there is a large gap between the Rich and the Poor. I expect in India's case it has something to do with the caste system. About the only exception was the USSR,, the only place I have been that did not consider themselves superior to americans. Usually the more dirt poor they are the more superior the upper class feel they are. I see some of that from Indians living in america.
     
  12. Firemaster

    Firemaster Captain STAR MEMBER

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    Guys Plz dont make this thread a sick one
    Keep it T-50 Vs F-22
     
  13. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    You are right, we have drifted away from the core top, Sorry from my side.
     
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  14. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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  15. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Considering how quick you are to ignore anthing about US you don't like...
     
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