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PAK-FA vs F/A-22 - Analysis

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by jagjitnatt, Jul 11, 2010.

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  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    In the real world the F22 has been tested time and time againstt aircraft that represent the most advanced and developed types of aircraft in the world. They are proven, combat tested and by far superior to their threat contemporaries. All have modern RWR, IRST and NATO standard datalinks. Not to mention the pilots flying them are the best and most battle proven in the world. Despite that, the F-22 simply makes air combat suicide for all lesser/previous aircraft. Please for once try and look at this objectively and FACTUALLY.

    There is no confusion. Red Flag isn't some platform vs platform pissing contest. Those F-22s faced the most skilled fighter pilots flying some of the worlds best jets simulating the types of tactics a potential opponent would use and tactics they would improvise to defeat the USAF and its F-22s. These include...

    -Highly classified TTPs like to be used as countermeasures

    -Swarming the F-22s with highly disproportionate numerical odds

    -All kinds of EW techniques to degrade sensor performance and communications

    -GPS jamming

    -Simulated SAMs of all kinds to include the most deadly double digit SAMs

    -AAA


    These efforts were described as "futile". Thats a powerful description. Especially when you have members of other Tier 1 Air Forces who use modern TTPs describing the experience as "highly frustrating". No one is in a better position to stop the F-22 than the USAF. They know full well it's limitations and the article suggest that even armed with this knowledge, it wasn't enough to overcome. It may or may not be a surprise that an aircraft like the F-22 could do this. But it certainly suggest that the F-22 is everything it is claimed to be and more.
    Your guys are dreaming there is no magic IRST or radar that is going to be a threat to the F22 or F35
     
  2. brahmastr

    brahmastr 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Nindakarirabeku Handiya Haage .... Sarvagna
     
  3. kooldkrazy

    kooldkrazy REGISTERED

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    F22 is no doubt best fighter but .......want to see more from pak fa .........i mean wanna see T-50 more in action so that we can start comparing both the aircrafts also ...........india and russia are aware of chenjadu j 20, f35 and f22 so they might incorporate all those features.........
     
  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I am just guessing, and there has been some rumors of some top secret weaons on the F22 and F35, I am guessing its some verison of America's Ultra-Secret Weapon - TIME It may just be on the F22 and that may be the reason we wont sell the F22.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  5. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Ever heard the old saying its easier said then done, the F22 and F35 are 7th and 8th version of stealth or partial stealth planes, the result of 30 years of research and development not only involving those planes we actually built and used in warfare, but ten more prototypes we did not even build plus the experience of building numerous stealthy drones.

    Now think about it,, The T50 is Russias first attempt at a stealth plane. The Russians have published the plane's expected radar cross section, and although it's lower than that of a plane in which no effort at radar signature reduction has been made at all, it's still many times as high as those of the latest American planes. It's more like what happens if you take an originally non-stealthy design and try to reduce its signature as much as you can from that starting point, like with the Superhornet and Lancer, and those are not "stealth" planes. Also, there has been no mention of signature reduction efforts in the infra-red spectrum for the PAK-FA, whereas American stealth planes do have infra-red signal reduction measures.

    So far at best on here fans of the PAK-FA and T50 hopes are for leap in abilities that is not warranted based on how Russia's technology seems to have been developing before, and in some cases boils down to no more than "it sort-of looks like a Raptor so let's presume it will be the same or better then a Raptor".
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  6. nicolas10

    nicolas10 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    BS.

    The americans don't want to sell the F22, because they don't want anyone to realise what useless overexpensive hangar queen it is.

    That way they can still pretend to have the best superduper plane and try to scare people.

    Nic
     
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  7. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Well, anything that help you retain peace of mind Sir,

    Besides so far I have not came across too many reasons why F-22 is not a good aircraft.
     
  8. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Cost, maintenance, substandard sensor suite, large size, high weight, basing requirements...
     
  9. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Although we have discussed it to death, but just for fun lets do it again.

    Yes high cost, But let us just discuss its performance in combat.

    Maintainance intensive, but your figures are questionable

    Thats new to me, except it lacks IRST, its sensor suit and avionics are believed to be best. Can you prove otherwise.
    Okay don't bother I know you can't.

    Whenever you raise this point, I wonder how small can Raptor afford to be, with all the 8 internally carried AAMs and 8200kg fuel?

    And for its dimensions, is raptor heavy? I don't think so.
     
  10. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Tigers had excellent performance in combat, but they were simply overwhelmed by enemy numbers; made even worse by the fact that they broke down frequently. Panthers and Tigers actually didn't have very good score against US tank destroyers. Same for Me-262, to use aviation example - deadly one-on-one, but simply outnumbered.

    And that is assuming F-22 actually will have as good performance as USAF says.

    F-22 has no sensors that can detect non-radiating enemy without requiring F-22 itself to radiate. And fighter with radar on cannot be called stealth.

    It can't, but smaller fighter needs less fuel for same performance, whereas internal missile carriage is unnecessary and actually harmful.

    It weights 20 000 kg empty. I'd have hard time classifying that as anything but "heavy".

    As for dimensions:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  11. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Well who can outnumber F-22?
    And as if there are no other aircraft in USAF,
    Usaf and USN have insane number of fighters.

    will F-22 be required to fight whole war alone?
    Reconsider your logic

    Because you have failed to justify your claims, all you say are assumptions too infact bad assumptions.



    And this means substandard? To me it means lacking, until I specifically want to project it in bad light.
    How many times you have been told that in a formation of multiple raptors, one raptor can radiate and others can operate passive?
    USAF must know better how to deal with it.

    So what?
    How does that explain that raptor is bad because its big?
    Small needs small and carries small fuel, large need more and carry more.
    It carry enough fuel for itself that too internally.
    Just think raptor can carry two drop tanks and it drop them whenever it needs stealth. After that it flies on 8200kg internal fuel.


    Unnecessary when you think stealth is unnecessary otherwise they are.

    Effect on performance.

    1.Internal carriage means most of extra weight is around centre line, and their ejection Cg shifts on that line and not laterally. Hence aircraft is more stable

    2.They save large amount of drag, important for kinematic performance and fuel consumption.

    Now I would like to know why they are unnecessary and harmful.
    Acoustic suppression measures are already there and enemy should not care much about them.


    Why would anybody have hard time in classifying it heavy, everyone knows its heavy.

    Why not compare it with tejas if your sole purpose is deception.
    2 lines ago you called it heavy and now comparing with medium weight class aircraft.

    If its large then it has got more thrust and more fuel. TWR is nearly same isn't it?

    Sometimes I think you are a TROLL, except you TRY to be technical
     
  12. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    We have no problems with what anyone say about the F-22. The more negative -- the better.

    Infrared sensor was removed from the baseline version to reduce cost. Not really that much of a saving, but more to make it more politically palatable. It can be installed at a later date. However, any adversary that radiate in trying to find the F-22 will give itself away anyway.

    LPI mode will do just fine.
     
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  13. TSUNAMI

    TSUNAMI Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    No he'll not .....If any of his point defeted, he'll not repete that on this thread, but will argue with the same point on every other thread.
    According to him a fighter w/o radar is good but a fighter w/o IRST is useless. Also every fighter will be knowing that it is gonna face a stealth fighter in war so it will be always operating passive.
    Again according to him there should be no heavy class fighter. USAF is fool, IAF is fool, PLAAF is fool, Russian air force is fool, all air forces in the world are fool. We got only one wise person.....Picard.
     
  14. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Considering F-22 yes,
    Let people live in their delusional world. If such people happened to be in opposite govt. USA would not require to spend that much.


    To my knowledge it was dropped on grounds of weight overruns if globalsecurity.org are to be believed.
     
  15. nicolas10

    nicolas10 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    A stealth fighter HAS to have some passive sensors. Period. You guys assume that LPI radars are a magic trick, but let me remind you that LPI stands for Low Probabiliy of Interception.

    The F22's radar isn't NPI.

    Nic
     
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