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Pakistan is a twin brother, India a great friend: Karzai

Discussion in 'International Relations' started by Agent_47, Oct 5, 2011.

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  1. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    thank you for actually posting something worth replying to!

    Yes, he was found in Abottabad, it's a failure of intel on our part, BUT..... question arises.... how did he get there? was he not in A'stan?

    We all know that OBL was in A'stan for the first few years of the WOT, intel suggested that he was in the border region in A'stan along with the bulk of the insurgents and AQ operatives. In 2003, the US had solid intel as to his here-abouts, they failed to capture o kill him, instead they drove thousands of insurgents, AQ operatives into Pakistan, wihtout notifiying Pakistani authorities.
    This is what gave rise to insurgency in Pakistan starting from 2004, in a way.... US tried to dump their problems on our land, instead and unluckily for them the insurgents regrouped got some recruits and support from the NW areas and came back to haunt them in the form of renewed insurgency in 2004.

    Now OBL was in A'stan for a good 2-3 years, during US occupation that is, so.... just because he was on that land, and because he hadn't been caught, is it enough to say that the US sheltered him? or support terrorists.

    please understand.... given chances to get him in 1998/99, 2001-2003, Tora Bora..... they still couldn't get him.
    Now if you compare the US' reach, and military might to ours.... is it even worth mentioning that t would be a lot harder for us to find a man, of a country of 180 million, in which many parts such as north Waziristan are lawless and ruled by tribal law, a man who hides, never comes out of his room, uses his accomplices to live his life outside of his house for him.

    Now you don't expect the training school to be actively looking for terrorists.... you don't expect PA to be on a man hunt, after 8 years of conspiracies about him being dead, alive in exile, in Iran, In quetta, In Saudi Arabia, Hell I even heard he went to NK.

    Consider that and it is absurd to blame us of supporting them.... yes there is the very slightest possibility....

    BUT... given the amount of AQ operatives we have captured of killed, it seems unlikely that we would double cross an ally for the special case of OBL, a washed poster child and nothing more.

    Now by conducting ops themselves... the US has hit two birds with one stone....

    one) Mr Obama gets to boast being able to do what 2 other presidents couldn't do....
    two) The US has either got serious trust issues or did it so they can use Pakistan as a scapegoat.

    Honestly, We have been helping more then anyone else in the WOT, we have suffered the most, and we will continue to.
    The least one could expect is some gratitude.
     
  2. sayed kayes ahamed

    sayed kayes ahamed FULL MEMBER

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    mr.karjai try to put his feet on both boats.its not a wise thinking.he has to taking a side.
     
  3. Sanjeeb Bose

    Sanjeeb Bose Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Hamid Karzai has no other option... He is in the line to be killed by the terrorist and their backers across the border... very recently the Afghan intelligence un covered the assassination plot... Even peacemaker like Rabbani is nor spared in Afghanistan...
     
  4. Ahmad

    Ahmad 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Well bro, i can give you links to prove that we are fighting the TTP actively for years now where they are having presence, but i doubt if we have the exacmple of of paksitan fighting our taliban.

    I think this is what we all know, and i dont see anyting wrong with it. But if we let the Taliban to harm others without engaging with them, then that is wrong, hope you see the difference. Talking is not surrender, we talk and at the same time we fight.

    PA is a professional army, and complaing about terrain shouldnt in their head. Also, we are always hearing that how PA has been successful against the TTP, if that is so, then they have the time and opportunity to take the fight against the Haqanis, if not the fight, then at least tell them to leave your soil.

    This shouldnt be about the Pakhtuns, it must be about the people of Afghanistan and Paksitan as well as the wider world. I cant understand why pakistani friends(who obviousely been influenced by their polititions/think tanks/analysts etc) do value and talk about the pakhtuns only as if the other people dont exist, is there any reason i wanan know?

    thanks
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  5. Ahmad

    Ahmad 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    karzai is right, we shouljdt take side.
     
  6. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The United States cannot afford to indulge Pakistan's support for terrorism any longer. The risks of sticking with the status quo are greater than the risks of adopting a tougher approach.

    How are insurgents able to continue launching deadly attacks in Afghanistan 10 years into the U.S.-led war there? Part of the blame — perhaps even the bulk of it — lies with Pakistan's army and its powerful intelligence arm, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, known by the acronym ISI.

    For decades, Pakistan has conducted a proxy war in Afghanistan through Islamist insurgent groups that it has created, nurtured and supplied. There is considerable evidence that these groups are managed not by "rogue" ISI elements, as has sometimes been asserted, but by the agency itself. The ISI is a disciplined military institution that answers to the orders of the military command, a point former Pakistani dictator Pervez Musharraf often emphasized. The current Pakistani army chief, army Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, was director of the ISI under Musharraf, and he headed the organization during 2005, when the Taliban began to make a strategic comeback in Afghanistan, operating from protected sanctuaries in Pakistan.

    Today, three Pakistani-supported proxy groups are fueling the insurgency in Afghanistan: the Quetta Shura, the Haqqani network and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's smaller terrorist group, Hezb-i-Islami. Not one of them has been placed on the U.S. State Department's official list of foreign terrorist organizations.

    Putting these groups on the list would make them subject to a range of U.S. sanctions, and it should be done immediately. There is extensive documentation in the public record — and extensive classified intelligence documentation — of their attacks on American forces inside Afghanistan, including the Haqqani network's deadly attacks at the U.S. Embassy and NATO headquarters last month. As Adm. Michael G. Mullen, outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, noted in testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee recently, the Haqqani network "acts as a veritable arm" of the ISI.

    The U.S. campaign against global terrorism cannot succeed as long as Pakistan's army and ISI continue to support terrorist sanctuaries and training facilities inside Pakistan. The same training camps used to prepare thousands of Afghan, Pakistani and Arab fanatics to cross into Afghanistan also churn out global terrorists like the Pakistani American Faisal Shahzad, who tried to bomb Times Square last year.

    Americans need to realize that terrorists' attempts to strike the United States from sanctuaries in Pakistan will occur again and again unless their bases are closed down. Bombs targeting American cities will inevitably become more lethal with time. Today they are conventional. Tomorrow they are likely to be biological, chemical or nuclear.

    Washington has long considered Pakistan an important ally, and so has tread lightly for fear of alienating the nuclear-armed and strategically located country. But it is time to add an "or else" to our dealings with Islamabad.

    In the weeks since Mullen's harsh language before the Senate, members of the Obama administration have sought to soften the rhetoric somewhat. White House spokesman Jay Carney described Mullen's comments as consistent with U.S. policy but said that he would not have used Mullen's language. Other officials, speaking on background, said Mullen's remarks weren't reflective of U.S. policy.

    But there are also indications that the U.S. could be finally ready to adopt a tougher approach. The day after Mullen spoke, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, publicly requested "that the State Department take the additional step of listing the [Haqqani] network as a foreign terrorist organization," noting that the organization "meets the [legal] standards" for this designation. Last week, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said the State Department was completing a "final formal review" preparatory to listing the organization. And at his Wednesday White House press conference President Obama warned that "there's no doubt that, you know, we're not going to feel comfortable with a long-term relationship with Pakistan if we don't think that they are mindful of our interests as well."

    These are steps in the right direction, but they don't go nearly far enough. The George W. Bush and Obama administrations' "soft" policy of persuasion mixed with bountiful aid and expectations of progress has failed. The U.S. needs to take a much harder stance on Pakistan's promotion of Islamist terrorism in the region and globally.

    Washington has the capability to bring great pressure to bear on Pakistan to encourage it to change course. The U.S. should privately and clearly convey to Pakistan's army and ISI that it will be compelled to implement escalating measures if Pakistan does not close down the ISI-sustained terrorist sanctuaries in Pakistan. The U.S. should also enlist other nations for regional and global coalitions to contain the terrorism coming from Pakistan. No Muslim government supports the sanctuaries in Pakistan exporting violent extremism. Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, Afghanistan, the Central Asian republics and Western Europe all wish to see them dismantled.

    Among other pressures the U.S. can bring to bear are the severance of all military and economic aid, the designation of the three Afghan terrorist organizations as foreign terrorist organizations, the naming of Pakistan itself as a state sponsor of terrorism and the declassification of information exposing the terrorist bases in Pakistan and the ISI's involvement in them.

    Pakistan has hinted lately that it would turn to China and Iran if the United States ramps up pressure. But neither China nor Iran would like to see a Taliban government return to Kabul, nor would they wish to spend the huge sums it would take to shore up Pakistan's listing economy.

    The Obama administration needs to implement a Pakistan policy that serves America's national security interests. It must be constructed for the long term and be responsive to Pakistan's actions. There should be incentives employed to encourage the dismantling of terrorists organizations that the ISI has created and sustained. And there should be consequences if it does not.

    The United States cannot afford to indulge Pakistan's support for terrorism any longer. The risks of sticking with the status quo are greater than the risks of adopting a tougher approach.
    Peter Tomsen is the author of the just-published "The Wars of Afghanistan." He was U.S. special envoy and ambassador to Afghanistan from 1989 to 1992.
    Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  7. Ahmad

    Ahmad 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    i personally dont believe that paksitan is helping AQ, yes their leader was caught in a very sensitive place, and that is the reason why pakistani gov is so angry, it is an embarassment as well as showing serious questions in how they handle things against AQ, we shouldnt forget that many AQ activists and leaders have been captured by paksitan.
     
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  8. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Afghan taliban was yet to step foot in areas such as Kurram agency, SWAT. If they had did, then they'd be dealt with along with the TTP.

    You must understand that Afghan taliban in Pakistan are all if not mostly in North Waziristan which we are yet to deal with.

    Not saying that this is wrong.... in fact I think that unless teamwork is achieved this war is unwinnable, since the allies ship has sailed, this war is now unwinnable for the time being.

    my point was in conjunction with the fact that neither country wants to bite off more then they can chew... it's like an official agreement, clean up what ever is on your side of the plate.

    It's not just the terrain.... it's a whole host of factors that make NW op near impossible to conduct successfully, the amount of tribes, factions that exist that are neutral, as soon as PA steps foot on their land, they become hostile to PA (especially after drone attacks).

    NW may eventually be conducted, but as I've said before.... there are a few prequisits, that haven't been met as of yet.

    We have to keep the pushtun populous on our side... it's a simple as that, they are vital. We cannot afford to turn them against us. Yes we value other Afghans/Pakistanis just as much, but this is the only one in the danger zone if you know what I mean?
     
  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Which means you are allies with terrorist that are attacking Americans, thats the bottom line.
     
  10. Aboveall

    Aboveall 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    As always you are either coming up with conspiracy theory or dreaming without putting two and two together. USA is staying put in Iraq to provide shield to Saudi Arabia and other kingdoms from Iran and possibly China's influence in the region. It is the same story for Afghanistan given its geographic location and the mistakes of previous withdrawal after Soviet Union defeat.

    This time around we will make sure that Afghanistan can stand up on its own and kick out those who have their own motives to be in their country. We have built and are building and keep building stronger Afghanistan one day at a time no matter what neighbouring country says.

    As per you Karzai will be gone. So what is your point? Don't you think they will be able to replace him with a leader of their choice rather than one dictated by thugs and drug dealer from across the border?

    Go take a look into crystal ball the future of Pakistan. Does it look bright or fuzzy? Directionless and under the influence of two powers.
     
  11. Aboveall

    Aboveall 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I did not know he was smoking something special until now, I was under the impression that his conspiracy theories and dreams are result of the lessons learned in Madrassa's. Just a different take on his mind set. But I like yours better than my own. We need jokers like him in our midst.
     
  12. Aboveall

    Aboveall 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    KAKU:

    This guy Hammad Khan is a cospiracy theorist and he sees things in his dreams which I and you cannot have access to. This is due to life wasted away in Madrassa's. His comments should be taken as a part of comedic act. I do reply him from time to him to take a jab at him but he never responds.
     
  13. Himanshu Pandey

    Himanshu Pandey Don't get mad, get even. STAR MEMBER

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    for me main issue is how much time and effort are needed to rebuild Afghanistan and to ensure peace there... they have a lot of resources and minerals thier which can make them rich but the question is are Afghan, Allied forces, India and china are interested in developing them in a nation with peace and growth or just using as a strategic assets.
     
  14. rcscwc

    rcscwc Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    A friend has all the rights to give you dollars, but no rights to expect anything in return. After all muslim-muslim bhai bhai, Hindu kaum kahan se ayee?
     
  15. indiantyper

    indiantyper REGISTERED

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    pakistan ka twin brother kaun hai? india ya afganisthan?
     
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