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Pakistan's War on Terror

Discussion in 'South Asia & SAARC' started by ANTIBODY, Aug 31, 2011.

  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect. [James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1,1774, as quoted by Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco:Harper & Row, 1987, p. 37]

    Remember this is by a man that was the President of the United States in a letter dated 1774
     
  2. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries. James Madison, 1803
     
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity. [James Madison, Letter to F.L. Schaeffer, Dec 3, 1821]
     
  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    Anti Christian riot in Pakistan, maybe your way is better, like in a pigs eye.
     
  5. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Pakistan has about 40 or more religious parties. You all need to start Pakistan over you don't have a chance of a
    snowball in hell they way you all are set up.
     
  6. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    This quote by Sir Winston Churchill in The Story of the Malakand Field Force caught my eye:

    "But the Mohammedan religion increases, instead of lessening, the fury of intolerance. It was originally propagated by the sword, and ever since, its votaries have been subject, above the people of all other creeds, to this form of madness. In a moment the fruits of patient toil, the prospects of material prosperity, the fear of death itself, are flung aside. The more emotional Pathans are powerless to resist. All rational considerations are forgotten. Seizing their weapons, they become Ghazis—as dangerous and as sensible as mad dogs: fit only to be treated as such. While the more generous spirits among the tribesmen become convulsed in an ecstasy of religious bloodthirstiness, poorer and more material souls derive additional impulses from the influence of others, the hopes of plunder and the joy of fighting. Thus whole nations are roused to arms. Thus the Turks repel their enemies, the Arabs of the Soudan break the British squares, and the rising on the Indian frontier spreads far and wide. In each case civilisation is confronted with militant Mahommedanism. The forces of progress clash with those of reaction. The religion of blood and war is face to face with that of peace.”

    Did he correctly foresee the root causes of the present day turmoil in the region? Is what he says in the same book further an indication of his racism and prejudice or merely saying things as he saw them?

    "That religion, which above all others was founded and propagated by the sword—the tenets and principles of which are instinct with incentives to slaughter and which in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men—stimulates a wild and merciless fanaticism. The love of plunder, always a characteristic of hill tribes, is fostered by the spectacle of opulence and luxury which, to their eyes, the cities and plains of the south display. A code of honour not less punctilious than that of old Spain is supported by vendettas as implacable as those of Corsica. …"

    This quote is from Churchill’s The River War:

    "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

    The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property—either as a child, a wife, or a concubine—must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science—the science against which it had vainly struggled—the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

    The question I pose here is whether present day Pakistan is a realization of the dreams of its founders or Churchill's nightmare come true?
     
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  8. Hesky Baig

    Hesky Baig FULL MEMBER

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    Either Olaf Caroe or Curzon recommended all Pashtun be killed, to resolve Afghan problem.

    No sane person will take this seriously, but there is some lesson in this. All of us are happy to live together, our Pashtun friends make trouble everywhere.
     
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  9. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    Will start tagging, Sirs. My apologies. Right now I am resting after a hard day's riding. Will get back in the groove soon.
     
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  10. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Churchill was almost certainly a racist, but that doesn't mean he was wrong about Islam. I'll just leave this here instead of a long-winded post I'd probably end up writing:
    [​IMG]
     
  11. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    The primary question I posed was not about Churchill, but about Pakistan, Sir, for a reason:

     
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  12. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Churchill's statements had nothing to do with Pakistan except insomuch as it is an Islamic country. In that case, it definetly is Churchill's nightmare come true, but so is Iran, Saudi Arabia, few dozen other countries, and Turkey also is moving in that direction.
     
  13. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    For that to be considered, Sir, without dragging the religion through the morass again and again, it just needs observation of the sterling qualities of the founder and the contrast to the manners and mores of the latter day citizens of his country to judge how far there has been a deviation from his ideals.
     
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  14. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    Sir, would you not consider the reasons for the said citizens for deviating from the ideals of the founder as being mostly due to the religion that Churchill described in such terms due to his own prejudice? Is it really prejudice if it can be shown to be true?
     
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  15. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    To be honest, Sir, I would continue to describe it as prejudice, for the following reasons:
    • Churchill had insufficient knowledge about Islam; he was a polished writer with a ear for the well-turned phrase, and used war-time documents extensively in his History of the Second World War, for instance; he was not a scholar;
    • All religions share a core set of negative and irrational traits, and for any nation to overcome the bonds of the religion or religions prevailing within its boundaries is itself a miracle; Islam did not present an impossible set of obstacles, only difficult ones;
    • I believe Pakistan was peculiarly unlucky, in various ways, but primarily in terms of quality of leadership, after Jinnah; in its rivalry with India, the less incompetent side has prevailed most of the time.
    He also displayed his race prejudice, and we have to take that into account; maybe his religious prejudice clouded his vision, maybe it was a pattern of interlocking prejudice that overwhelmed him when push came to shove, who is to say, today?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
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