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Pakistan's War on Terror

Discussion in 'South Asia & SAARC' started by ANTIBODY, Aug 31, 2011.

  1. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    Okay, let us consider Churchill as being prejudicial towards Islam, for purposes of this discussion. Even accepting Pakistan's misfortunes in leadership after Jinnah, would it be unreasonable to expect a nuclear-armed nation of 200 million people, independent for 70 years, to at least come up with a semblance of a working system? Why has present-day Pakistan becomes a poster child that could be used as an example to illustrate the dangers posed by Churchill? Where does the Objective Resolution play into all of this?
     
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  2. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Well, Sir, as you recall very well, there was the Objective Resolution; Bhutto's opportunist introduction of the phrase Islamic Republic; there was Zia's warped thinking and introduction of a layer of Islamic consent over all state decision-making. All these were enablers. The implementation was what released toxic fumes into Pakistan's inner atmosphere. The implementation was, in my opinion, making an ecology for the breeding of irregular armed troops to wage furtive warfare in the Afghan civil war. Once the civil war was over, where was that population of zealous, armed goons going?
     
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  3. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    As far as I know, there are only two entities that claim to speak for the entire Universe.

    One is the Government of Pakistan that assigns sovereignty over all of the Universe to Allah, meaning that, in one stroke, they do not recognize anyone else's beliefs of sovereign rights. Just think about the implications of that for a minute, Sir.

    And the other entity? The Miss Universe Pageant, of course. :D
     
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  4. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    The plan was to send them to Kashmir. After defeating USSR, the grandiose dream was to take down the evil Hindu enemy. Obviously, things did not quite work out that way.
     
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  5. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    A sincere request: These sallies and thrusts MUST be accompanied by a warning, perhaps a flashing light or a loud noise. I was caught unawares and got a painful stitch in my sides laughing.

    It is difficult to see anything to object to, or to obstruct in the Pageant's claim to Universal jurisdiction. I should personally be inclined to defend that claim actively, with energy and enthusiasm, not to mention the increasingly faint possibility of recognition as a true knight worthy of guerdons or more.

    As for the other party in contention, no, I had not thought about the implications, but on considering this, very many things fall neatly into place. For a chosen people, the letter and spirit of any contract or international treaty must both look ridiculous; these things don't apply to the chosen. Being asked to retire while fighting the good fight must also seem a bit pointless and indicate a complete lack of understanding within the pettifogging bureaucrat who seeks this irritating and irrelevant step. Still, there is always another, almost identical career looking ahead, as an expert on TV talk shows. As far as is apparent to the amateur eye, sitting in a chair and blowing out hot air is more or less what they did while in service.

    So treaties don't count and tenure should be infinite. What else? From my desk on this bleary-eyed morning, all this rubbish about civilian deaths really needs heavy-handed censorship. Even a baby ghazi knows that taking over a piece of land specially allotted to one for one's personal pleasure and profit by the all highest will be an awkward and messy proposition with crying, blubbing individuals hanging on to it. It is far more logical to remove them before moving in.

    A shrewd observation, Sir. Now if only that had been spotted while incoming, and defensive measures adopted........
     
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  6. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The effects were not what they anticipated, nor what they cared to do anything about on finding out what happened. I want to introduce you to a Facebook group called Moderate Voice of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. It will obtain for you startling insights into the real sentiments and the ardent desire for peace amongst most of them.
     
  7. T-123456

    T-123456 2nd Lieutant THINKER

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    No to both.
    The battle of Gallipoli was the main reason for his hate of the ''Mohammedans'',it was his plan which failed and he got demoted after the campaign.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign#Aftermath

    Present day Pakistan is not the dream of its founders,after Jinnahs death the Islamists as the most powerful party took over and the roadmap was set.
    Jinnah wanted a secular state,he was a big fan of Ataturk and wanted the same for his country.
    The white stripe by the hoist side represents the nation's minority non-Muslim population,why would an Islamist country do that?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
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  8. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    One factor about Pakistan that emerges from Pakistan-watching is the irrepressible confidence in an easy victory that seems to have the minds and imagination of the Pakistani leadership in a death-grip. They got Pakistan, with the help of the British Indian establishment, even though the UK side may have been less enthusiastic. They then thought they would get Kashmir; perhaps partly because of a divided leadership, with the operations left to Liaqat and others, they got less than they had anticipated, but the robust self-confidence continued. 1965 was pure, unadulterated bravado; no reasoning illuminated that decision. But they converted their draw into victory, in the telling of the tale in the bazaar, it was a great victory, because -and this is an education in rustic wisdom for all of us - they did not lose! In 1971, it was treacherous not to face them in man-to-man combat, and that had nothing to do with their not facing their own citizens on that same basis. The rule that applies is,"Do as I say, not as I do!"

    So too in 1999, in 2002, in 2011; it is as if their general outlook was to look at the possible, and, having identified it, to build around it. They never seem to have taken risk into account.
     
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  9. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    The real danger lies in a chosen people believing in their own hype about being the chosen people, above all others. After all, why deal with fellow human beings and nations in an engaging manner when one can claim to be working according to the edicts of a higher authority? So what others see as hypocrisy in crying about treatment of minorities elsewhere (specially in India) while ignoring worse travesties within Pakistan is see by the chosen ones as furthering God's work.

    This is just another example of how the tilted foundation causes the whole edifice to lean. The higher one builds, the more likely it is to tip over.

    If Kashmir is a millstone around Pakistan's neck, it is not much different for India too, sadly, due to errors of its policies too. What is stopping India from declaring the LoC as a border, and assimilating Indian Kashmir (I propose the names North Kashmir and South Kashmir, similar to the partitioning of of Punjab and Bengal) into the same constitutional framework as the rest of its provinces? It has far more to gain than to lose by taking the initiative and leaving Pakistan to bleed from its own self-inflicted wounds.

    The post General Zia revisionists have painted Jinnah as wanting an Islamic state quite successfully.

    And please never forget that the white part of the flag has the pole rammed up it. Quite symbolic. :D
     
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  10. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    You are quite obviously in a rare mood today; almost as if you have been freed from a long jail sentence, and have come out and taken up your old sword and are taking practice swipes with it. I can see that members here had better hurry past with their gazes averted, with you in quite this murderously playful mood!!

    That is precisely it, those who fall for the line that they are the chosen people thereafter go from stages from chosen people guided and instructed by chosen guides and instructors to chosen people who obviously have been raised above all others and no longer really need guidance and instruction. Just the overwhelming urge that wells up in their hearts, which obviously represents the divine impulse.

    They can do no wrong; their wrongs, supposedly so to the common herd, are directly subject to the wishes of the almighty, therefore they cannot actually be wrongs, they simply seem to be so; it is all the delusion of those not chosen. Others, those not chosen, are obviously not under the benign protection of Himself, and hence must answer to Him for their evident crimes (especially the ones that the chosen have brought to the attention of the All Highest).

    Tempting; very tempting, but constitutionally not possible. For two reasons, one a Kashmiri reason, one a generally applicable reason.

    First the territory of Kashmir was defined by the constituent assembly of Jammu & Kashmir, and so too the laws. The Government of India, however much it yearns to do it, will actually be doing something illegal if it takes steps of the sort you have suggested without the active support of the J&K state assembly. This is what Article 370 protects: any action by Government of India not specifically incorporated into the state assembly is infructuous.

    Second, the Indian constitution has a glaring gap. It does not allow the cession of any territory whatsoever.

    That was a piece of sustained propaganda which was played very constitutionally. One can only hope for ameliorative action.
     
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  11. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    I think we should explore this in another thread, starting with the question as to where are the actual boundaries of the State of Jammu and Kashmir are actually defined.
     
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  12. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    http://jklegislativeassembly.nic.in/Costitution_of_J&K.pdf

    I regret to inform you that it actually does say Costitution, instead of constitution.

    Please see Part II section 4.

    4. Territory of the State:-The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories which on the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or suzerainty of the Ruler of the State.
     
  13. VCheng

    VCheng RIDER GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    Already beat you to it, Sir:

    http://indiandefence.com/threads/kashmir-then-and-now.56541/

    See you there!
     
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