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Petrol prices hiked by Rs 7.5 per litre

Discussion in 'World Economy' started by Osiris, May 23, 2012.

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  1. Shikari

    Shikari 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Ok you've made a lot of important points. I'll try to address them one by one. First of all, I admit I hadn't read your post before making mine. It was getting late and I just read the first 50 or so posts. However, my post wasn't a response to your post - just a response to the general mood in here. You may not share all the thoughts that some people are saying and that is fine. Please don't take my post too personally. Anyway, it seems like you didn't really read what I said either and just went into a bashing tirade so I don't feel too guilty over this.

    Yes, UPA HAS screwed up its spending in the past. No one is denying that. I am not a Congress fan boy trying to defend the move. I am talking about this PARTICULAR move. Too many people are screaming "How did we get here in the first place?? You guys did something wrong!" While that is true, there is nothing that can be done about that now. We can't dial back time - we just need to fix the problems we now face. And I believe this is one small step in that direction.

    You claim that "the petrol price rise is not going to help. The real import bill comes in from Diesel." This is not accurate. The losses being taken by our oil companies come from pretty much everything (petrol, diesel, LPG). I don't see why the price hike is not going to help. Sure, it might help more if diesel and LPG prices are raised but the only reason it will 'help' more is that more people use these products and so more increased revenue will come from a price rise in those commodities. Another way of saying it is that more people will be adversely affected by a price rise in diesel than in petrol. We need to walk a fine line here - adjusting the Current Account Deficit (CAD) while keeping inflation controllable and not letting Aggregate Demand fall too much. Having said that, a price hike in diesel will still be appreciated in the long run (in the short run it will hurt but at least things won't keep getting worse). Are you following me so far? If your head is hurting from what is clearly economics 101 (not even 101 to be honest) go and argue with someone who has more patience than me.

    About your second paragraph, I agree with a lot and disagree with a lot as well. Please hear me out. Yes, it is almost entirely the UPAs fault that the rupee is where it is. But it is not there because of their 'pet projects'. In fact, pet projects have nothing to do with anything. The stupid decisions by the government (especially the retrospective taxation) has hit investor confidence brutally. Forget FIIs, Indians are pulling money out of our market because they don't know what the government will do next. There is simply a bigger supply of the rupee (more people want to sell) and a smaller demand (less people want to buy rupee). That is the ONLY factor that decides the price of rupee, believe it or not, not how many pet projects the government starts. This has to do with the image the government has created but I don't know if it has anything to do with pet projects. Yes inflation is a HUGE problem right now. Every year I go to Kolkata and my grandma tells me how much the prices have gone up from last year. Middle-class people and pension earners are finding it difficult to have a decent standard of living. Prices going up is a huge problem but it is hardly a problem that is unique to India. Everyone is facing this issue and while our government is dealing with it incompetently, they haven't created this problem. On this note, I believe that if the retail sector reforms were passed, I think a lot of middle men would have lost their profit margins and prices would have come down. But that is another story altogether and this seems to be a bad time to say "I told you so". So to sum it up, yes a lot of bad things have been happening but I don't know exactly how much can be attributed to the government, how much to the unhelpful and shallow minded opposition, how much to global factors and how much to bad luck.

    The comment of MMS is an idiot made me laugh. It is easy to vent at someone for our misfortunes but it does nothing to improve our fortunes. Has MMS made all the right calls? Possibly not. Could you have done any better in his place? Definitely not. Again, I am not condoning the incredible inflation we are faced with - I just don't see how he can fix it if both international prices are going up and we are in a huge CAD (meaning we can't give larger subsidies) and he can't get any bills across the parliament because of previously mentioned facts. He hasn't done everything right but you need to appreciate that this is what happens when you elect a weak government. If he had the votes, I am sure things would have gone differently. As for pet projects, I see your skepticism at the fact that the government is trying to take care of the poor but I don't understand it. You seem to think that the government exists to make YOUR life better. Believe it or not, they have to take care of 1.2 Billion people - not just one unsatisfied blogger. And there are close to 500million of them starving for no good reason. You think they are poor because they are lazy? Einsteins are being born and dying in those slums in India - doing nothing but begging for food. I understand that these projects hurt the Current Account but coming from a family that has risen from near-absolute poverty after both my grand-parents died in the Kargil wars and then being born heir to millions of dollars because some government program gave my parents the opportunity to get an education, I have quite a bit of sympathy for these 'pet projects'. You don't need to agree with me but if you don't, you can go and F*** yourself because there is not much else you can do about it. Everyone deserves an opportunity at a better life - not just you, Mr. olivers.

    LOL prices are the same in US and India??? What planet are you from friend? A FEW products have the same price in India and in the US. This is due to a number of reasons ranging from the fact that American farms are huge and they produce things with the benefits of economies of scale, better technology (more automation, less wages), subsidies etc. It's silly to say (or imply) everything is the same price (or remotely close in price) in the two countries. A comment born out of ignorance, I'd wager.

    And lastly, your comments on the Indo-US nuclear deal.... I am making a conscious effort to not say what I feel about it out of fear that it will attract the wrath of moderators and I hope you keep these kinds of moronic ideas to yourself in the future so that I will not be tempted again. The Nuclear deal was HUGE in context - just how huge it will take people decades to fully realize. true, it did not directly lead to investment. But it was the single biggest elephant in the room when India sat in dialogue with any Western country. In 10 years, we have come from getting sanctioned by them for nuclear tests to being praised for Agni-V. Just how much it will help economically might be difficult for you to comprehend but no agreements between the West and India could be reached without first dealing with the nuclear issue. Also, if you had ANY clue about how much of an energy crisis we're in, you'd know just how important it was for us to get that deal (to e ale to secure large amounts of radioactive material for our reactors). India got a lot out of that deal from the US - not immediately perhaps. But it changed the Western image of India from a rogue nuclear state (not unlike Pakistan and Iran) to an aspiring superpower.

    LOL why did we suddenly start a political argument? Every party is JUST as corrupt as the next. UPA has been in power for longer so it has sucked more money but BJP is not full of nice people either. They are all corrupt and your blind following of BJP is amusing. Now lastly, if you had actually bothered to read my post then you'd be aware that I am, in fact, not from New Zealand. But of course, you were too intent on trying to bash me so it's understandable that you would mix up United Kingdom and New Zealand - even though they are as far away fro each other as two landmasses can possibly be on this Earth. You do see why I'm not taking your post seriously, don't you? You probably lack the cranial capacity to figure out what I said and regurgitated whatever your BJP MLA told you one day.

    Lastly, I want to state that I do not want to hijack this post with a heated argument so I am sorry to everyone who had to read that and didn't want to.
     
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  2. Osiris

    Osiris Major SENIOR MEMBER

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  3. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I will rebut you pointwise. MMS is a fool and I will tell you how? Wait for 2mrw.
     
  4. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    Sorry- i'm a congress supporter and I don't support this move. You know why? This is a mask to cover all the decision they didn't take. They have not allowed any substantial oil sector reforms at all. A slew of PSU's keep eating into our resources and that's just the beginning. This is a move of desperation- not bravery.
     
  5. Shikari

    Shikari 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    LOL I can totally understand that you don't like the move - no one wants to pay that much more for petrol. I don't like paying more for stuff either. But that doesn't make it a wrong move. Again, we are going back to the attitude of "How did we get here in the first place?? You guys did something wrong!" that I mentioned earlier. Yes, they have made a LOT of mistakes - enough to guarantee their exit from the center in 2014 tbh. But past mistakes can't be a reason to condemn present moves.

    Let's talk about all the decisions they didn't make... Oil sector reforms? You think they would be allowed to go through in the parliament? Someone would have to stand up and say to the MLAs "Guys I don't want to spend two days talking about cartoons of dead people and want to get some real work done in here!" But of course that would take courage and we don't pick our leaders based on their courage - we pick them based on their promises. Parliament has basically turned into a joke and quite happy to have people mock them. Anyway, exactly what type of reforms are you talking about in the first place? We import over 80% of our oil, I believe, and we have very little choice as to what we pay for it. We can basically buy it at that price or F*** off.

    Similar argument with Public Sector Units eating into our resources. Yes, PSUs aren't efficient - in fact very few public sector institutions are. And they do need to become more efficient. Valid point there but I just don't know if they make the defining difference that increases the price. I mean how much do they waste? Again, I want to remind you that we import about 80% of our oil (possibly more). So no matter how much we buy, we pay the same price. You are probably talking about the oil we produce in our country but that is so small a percentage that it wouldn't make any significant difference (in my opinion).

    I don't want to come off as stubborn and say something like this: "This decision taken was the only possible right decision." It was a rough decision and there will always be questions (even in my mind) about whether such a huge move was necessary. Certainly other moves could have been made that would decrease the extent of the price rise. I am merely saying that we tend to bash any rises in price (as primitive idiots, I might add) and that is why leaders like Mamata Banerjee with her "I will never allow a single price rise in my lifetime" motto come into power - and stay in power from the looks of things. We like these morons to lead us and give us an "easy life". Hard shocks are necessary sometimes and when the country's dynamics are as bad as this, I would tend to believe that this is one of those times. No one likes paying more - especially for a basic commodity like petrol. People don't have to riot on the streets for the government to get that and leading (or participating in) such riots is the height of irresponsibility. People are just looking to turn this into an election campaign to get votes - and damn the country in the process - who needs a country if you can have power, right?

    To conclude, this is certainly not a move of bravery, not even a move of desperation, but a move of necessity. And we should look at it as such - no point arguing against a price rise when it's absolutely necessary.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  6. ManuSankar

    ManuSankar Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Nice one:cheers:
     
  7. olivers

    olivers 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    My last reply on this forum is in bold within the quoted text.

    Mr poster, please check on the logical fallacies of personal attacks and misdirection. None of the arguments I used earlier are refuted. Misdirected and then personal attacks. Good luck with the forum.

    Note to the mods. It's been nice here. However this forum isn't moderated when it must be. It's moderated when it's not necessary. You can ban this user for all the good words used. Must be real nice to call names.




    I don't make personal attacks. I didn't bring in your hatred for BJP. You did. I have already stated that I vote for neither party. I abstain from voting through protest procedure. (Rule-0). I will not reply to you anymore. This is my last post on this forum. I don't post where the moderators allow viscous personal attacks on someone. It shows lack of ethics from the person in the debate. You don't know me so it's even more ludicrous. It shows there is no argument which the other person can indulge in other than personal attack fallacy.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  8. Shikari

    Shikari 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    OMG don't get so angry and emotional about it. I don't believe I said anything that would make my post worthy of being deleted. I certainly don't believe I should get banned because of it. It is a public forum and we're allowed to voice our opinions (barring those opinions are not obscene). Far worse language has been used in the past and it has been forgiven. I did say to not take my post too personally in the very beginning, did I not?

    Anyway, I won't apologize for what I said. You felt the government and MMS are idiots and you expressed your opinions... I felt you are an idiot and expressed mine. I don't know if there is too much to this. If you can't handle rough counter-attacks, don't get involved in controversial arguments. Recall that YOU started this argument. I made a general comment and you came out of nowhere with your nauseating and condescending tone. People do feel strongly over this issue and your high-handed attitude of "You, Mr. New Zealander, don't have to pay more so you are definitely wrong" was bound to get a smashing. I am fine if you counter-bash but running away with your tail between your legs AFTER saying your last words does not come off as heroically as you might imagine. On this note, I honestly can't believe you are still arguing on this issue. I have NEVER lived in New Zealand. Sure, I have visited my parents there but they moved there only after I went to uni. You would probably find evidence backing these facts if you went through all of my posts. Anyway, might I comment that you have a knack of choosing losing battles? This is not an argument you can win so is it really that difficult to say "OK, I was wrong. I didn't read your post properly. You aren't from NZ." Is it REALLY that difficult??? That was like my first comment in my apparently arrogant and insensitive post.

    Now, I won't go point by point through all you comments since you claim you will never read this but I DO want to go over the first comment as it is a classic example of what you do for the rest of the post. So here is your first comment:

    "So let's have UPA III again is your solution."

    No... My solution is that you read my post again. As I was worried, you had trouble understanding what I said. Maybe I wasn't being clear enough or maybe you turned out to be as thick as I was worried you were, but the result is that if you made that deduction after reading my post, you obviously didn't get something vital. May also be a reason why you thought it was so offensive - cuz you didn't get what I was trying to say.

    If you want to leave, that is your call. You shouldn't stay a moment longer than you want to. But, believe you me, this is a stupid reason to leave. I have been bashed worse and sometimes I've fought back, sometimes I've run away, sometimes I've accepted in public that I was wrong. But ultimately, that is why I'm here. If the mods started to kill the debating spirit of the site, I'd stop coming - even if it wasn't me that they were moderating.

    I believe the mods here are brilliant to be honest. While I have never run into any trouble with them yet, I have come close a couple of times and I'm sure I will be deleted a few times in the future as I don't plan on leaving IDF. My advice to you in life is this bro: Instead of venting and crying over perceived injustices, do something about it. Otherwise, NO ONE will take you seriously in life. This is how people are, sadly enough... If you let them trample all over you, that is exactly what they'll do (not that I am admitting to trampling on you in my previous post). I hope the next time you get into an argument, whichever forum you are in, you put up a better show than here.

    Adios Amigo :frown:
     
  9. johngray

    johngray FULL MEMBER

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    All is Politics announcing more money and after that reducing only some money it was planed by the Government.
     
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