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PLAAF: News & Discussions

Discussion in 'China & Asia Pacific' started by MiG-23MLD, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. RMFAN

    RMFAN Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Anyway, Chinese homemade J-20, J-16 and J-10C can be manufactured in full scale by the Chinese . Meanwhile, as the Indian Su-30 MKI and the upgrade version "Super Sukhoi" had to rely on Russian supply and your fate is controlled by somebody else. That is the deference between China and India in military manufacturing industry.
     
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  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Wrong, because India will integrate own systems and weapons into the MKI, while also using Russian high techs and weapons that are available to us.
    China on the other hand, can't upgrade Su 30s or 35s with own systems and don't get Russian high techs and weapons either and that's the difference, because that makes you more dependent on Russia than India for these fighters.
    And as said before, you haven't shown any official source to compare the Chinese AESA with Russian IRBIS PESA for example, so you don't know if J16 is superior to Su35 and there is no reason to believe that the MKI upgrade will be anything short of the 35.
     
  3. RMFAN

    RMFAN Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Chinese do not need any upgrading of Su-30MKI which are outdated and waiting for retired a few years later, and they will be replaced by J-16 and J-20.

    24 Su-35 are not the main force in Chinese Air Force as they are used for training partners for Chinese J-16/J-10/J-20/J-15/J-11B. And their Saturn AL-41F1S afterburning turbofan engines can be a reference for Chinese R&D .

    Chinese Air Force eyes on US Air Force only, nobody else.

    Chinese J-20A powered by WS-10B turbo fan engines vs American F-22

    Chinese J-20B powered by WS-15 turbo fan engines vs American F-22 upgrade version

    Chinese J-31 production version vs American F-35A/B/C

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Chinese J-16 powered by WS-10A turbo fan VS American F-15SE

    Chinese J-10C powered by WS-10A turbo fan VS American F-16V

    Chinese J-15B powered by WS-10H turbo fan VS American F-18E/F



    Only China can develop such range of jet fighters to challenge the American in the world.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    MKK, but of course they do, that's why Su 35 was bought to get advanced Russian radar and engine technology, that is superior to what the J11 and Co fleet offered.

    Which again confirms the technological superiority of Russian techs, that China could not match without buying Su 35s.
     
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  5. RMFAN

    RMFAN Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Only the turbo fan engines of Su 35s are the good reference for Chinese R&D, not the outdated avionics and radar. However, Chinese WS-15 turbo fan is a few years away for use. Well, about 5 years later, Chinese turbo fan engine will surpass the Russian and try to catch up the American.

    30 yeras ago, nobody can imagine that China can catch up the technology of American 5th generation jet fighters in 30 years.

    30 years ago , in 1980's, China had no capability to design and manufacture 4th generation jet fighter. At that time, the American already started to design the fifth generation jet fighter.

    For the last 30 years, Indian HAL Tejas project is a failure as the Indian Air Force still wants to buy the other foreign jet fighters like F-16 till now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  6. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    China is yet to develop its own turbofans to power jets. So till then all it can do for 4th gen is fly prototypes with Russian fans.
     
  7. RMFAN

    RMFAN Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Chinese homemade WS-10A turbo fan engines have been into mass production to installed on J-11B/J-16/J-10B/C.

    Chinese homemade WS-10B turbo fan engines have been tested on J-20 recently.
     
  8. Angel Eyes

    Angel Eyes 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    He is a brainwashed wumao, there is no point in debating with him
     
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  9. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    No body still imagine Chinese having 5th gen. Who knows whats inside.

    Remember Su-35 ? Oh wait its a trainer. You can't even make a trainer. :biggthumpup:

    He have no other option, sympathise for him.
     
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  10. RMFAN

    RMFAN Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    What you said is just a joke, a reflection of a Indian type Wumao.
     
  11. Angel Eyes

    Angel Eyes 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Funny thing is that , they declared it production ready while even the russians are struggling with Su 57....
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    How is their avionics outdated, when they are better than what J16 has? Look at the cockpit displays for example! What Russia added years ago to the Su 35, China is now adding to J20, while J16 has older gen MFDs. So you keep on catching up, because of your limitations in design and development.

    Step 1 - buying Su 27 single role fighters
    => Step 2 - reverse engineering them into J11

    Step 3 - buying Su 30MKK and Su 33
    multi role and naval fighters
    => Step 4 - implementing the knowledge into J16 and J15

    Step 5 - developing J20 based on Russian and US designs
    => buying Su 35 to get engine and or radar technology to reverse engineer again

    So it's a constant catch up game, with very limited own design and development gains.
    Your main skill is, the increasing level of quality in reverse engineering and I mean that sincerely, because especially the navalising of J11 based on Su 33 and even more so your carrier developments based on the older carrier, went so fast and well, that one has to admire China's industrial capabilities!
    However, at the same time the design and development skills especially in the aviation field remain very limited. You still develop only "own upgrades", of a foreign fighter design's (J11, 15 and 16, from Su 27, 33 and 30), but don't develop own fighter designs! That's where Russia, the US and other countries still remain clearly ahead, even after all these years.
    I have no doubt that you will catch up on design and development as well, you are spending a whole lot of money to buy foreign know how and improving your capabilities, so it needs to gain success at some point, but it still will take some time.
     
  13. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    3rd gen fans on 5th gen frames.
     
  14. RMFAN

    RMFAN Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_WS-10

    The Shenyang WS-10 (Chinese: 涡扇-10; pinyin: Wōshàn-10; literally: "turbofan-10"), codename Taihang, is a turbofan engine designed and built by the People's Republic of China.

    The WS-10A reportedly powers the J-11B[2] the J-16, and the Shenyang J-15.[1] Unconfirmed reports claim the WS-10A powers some J-10Bs.[3] Unconfirmed reports also claim an improved WS-10A powers the J-11D.[4]

    Chinese media claimed 266 engines were manufactured from 2010 to 2012 for the J-11 program.[5] Unofficial estimates placed production at more than 300 units by May 2015.

    Description[edit]
    The WS-10A is advertised as 120–140 kilonewtons (27,000–31,000 lbf) thrust engine.[1] It has Full Authority Digital Engine Control.[6]

    Development[edit]
    The WS-10 is derived from the CFM56 with the experience gained from Woshan WS-6 turbofan project, which was abandoned at the start of the 1980s.[7] The WS-10 project was reportedly started by Deng Xiaoping in 1986 to produce an engine comparable to the AL-31. The work was given to the Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute (606 Institute) of Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC).[6] The WS-10 may have been based on the core of the CFM-56II (itself based on the General Electric F101); China purchased two CFM-56IIs in the 1980s before the arms embargo.[8] After being unable to purchase source code from Salyut, China spent nearly 20 years developing its own source code for the WS-10 engine. [1]

    The WS-10A, targeted for 130 kilonewtons (29,000 lbf) of thrust,[6] was already in development in 2002.[9] An early version was flown on an J-8II in 2002.[1] In 2004, Russian sources familiar with project reported problems meeting the thrust target;[10] in 2005, they reported problems reducing the weight of the primary and secondary compressors, in addition to problems meeting thrust requirements.[11] Engine testing on the J-11 had already started by 2004,[10] and testing using one engine on the J-11 may have occurred as early as 2002.[9]

    A full-scale WS-10A engine was first seen at the 2008 China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition.[6]

    In 2009, Western media reported that the WS-10A approached the performance of the Saturn AL-31, but took much longer than the AL-31 to develop thrust.[12]Furthermore, reportedly the engine only generated 110–125 kilonewtons (25,000–28,000 lbf) of thrust.[6] In April 2009, Lin Zuoming, head of AVIC, reported that the engine's quality was unsatisfactory.[13] In 2010, it was reported that reliability was also poor; the WS-10A lasted only 30 hours, while the AL-31 needed refurbishing after 400 hours.[14] The quality problems encountered with the WS-10A reflected the state of the Chinese aerospace industry; AVIC initiated a general effort to improve quality control throughout its production chain in 2011.[15]

    The WS-10A reportedly matured enough after 2009 to power the J-11B Block 02 aircraft.[16] A WS-10A-powered J-10B was seen in July 2011, but the engine did not power the initial J-10B production batch, possibly because of production or performance issues.[17]

    Unconfirmed reports claimed the first flight of the J-11D was powered by a new WS-10 variant; the variant reportedly had improved reliability, with a thrust of more than 13t, but less than that of the AL-31F-M1. The flight was revealed in early May 2015.[1]

    Variants[edit]
    • WS-10
    • WS-10A – improved variant; advertised to have 120–140 kilonewtons (27,000–31,000 lbf) of thrust[1]
    • WS-10G – thust vectoring variant for the J-20 fighter;[21] 152–155 kilonewtons (34,000–35,000 lbf) of thrust[6]
    • WS-20 – high-bypass derivative for the Y-20 transport; 138 kilonewtons (31,000 lbf) of thrust[19]
    Performance
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------


    After all, the Chinese WS-10 series turbo fan engine is in the same class as the Russian Saturn AL-31, Pratt & Whitney F100 and General Electric F110.

    So far , only USA, Russia and China can manufacture such class of turbo fan engines.

     
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    And they are old gen engines, since the US and Russia already have newer versions in their latest fighters. Also There are similar class engines from Europe that were developed for older Mirage or Tornado fighters, so there are more countries that are ahead of China in the engine field, than US and Russia.
     

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