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Proxy War - India Pakistan Tactics And Equipment

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by MilSpec, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Proxy War:
    Proxy war between India and Pakistan is broadly classified as border exchanges of small medium and occasionally heavy caliber for various purposes. Small and Medium caliber of support fire is often employed to provide either cover or create diversion for Pakistani infiltration to cross the line of actual control. The border exchanges between the two nations has seen different levels of escalation, for purpose of classification

    Level 1 Engagement: can be defined as exchange of small caliber between two posts, along with patrol party engagements with infiltrators. During infiltration bids it is common for Indian army to use 84mm Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifles with HEDP round in bunker buster or anti personnel role.

    Level 2 Engagement : is primarily is to cause post level damage and send a message of escalation, Level 1 systems are aided by fire support from medium to large caliber Mortars, Grenade Launchers.

    Level 3 Engagement: Level 3 Engagements are when Artillery fires is employed not just to target individual posts but an entire area. Light to medium artillery is employed with the intent to inflict maximum casualty on the opposition.


    Level 1 Engagement: Current state

    The usual cover fire from pakistani army for infiltration consists of sustained fire using G3A3 Rifles, and MG3 Machine guns. Pakistani army on the line of control also extensively uses the Steyr SSG 69 bolt action rifle in a sniper role to target Indian posts. One of the notable aspects for this Platoon level engagement is the 7.62x51 Nato cartridge used in G3A3, MG3 and the SSG 69 Bolt action rifle.

    H&K G3 - Standard Issue Battle Rifle:

    H&K G3.jpg

    H&K MG3 standard Issue Machine Gun:

    MG3.jpg

    Steyr SSG 69:

    Steyr.jpg




    Now the Indian side of reaction to this small arms fire take a different approach, the battle rifle utilized by the Indian Army is the mix of AKM/VZ58's and the Insas 1B1 chambered in the 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 nato respectively, Bren LMG chambered in 7.62 x51 nato and in some instances the PKM chambered in 7.62x54R. Indian platoons instead of a dedicated sniper rifle utilizes a semi automatic Dragonuv SVD in the designated marksman role also chambered in 7.62x54R. Four different calibers in the platoon level mix, also not worthy is PKM are belt fed machine guns, and AKM's and VZ58's although chambered in the same caliber use distinctly different magazines.

    AKM's and Insas:

    insas akm mix.jpg

    Bren LMG:

    bren.jpg

    Carl Gustavs and VZ58's

    VZ 58 and Carl Gustavs.jpg

    SVD Dragunov

    SVD.jpg



    Consolidation of the cartridge caliber among the Battle rifle, Precision Rifle and the machine gun, is a big advantage from logistical and operational stand point. Every Pakistani soldier can share ammunition among each other when it mounts an attack or retaliate when it comes under attack. With a single battle rifle system, it is easy for all users to share magazines among each other. Precision Rifle system SSG 69 with it's Kahles ZF 84 10 x 40 scope, is an extremely accurate system which boasts a consistent 0.5 MOA level accuracy. With the consolidated 7.62 x 51 nato platform, the Pakistani contingent has the ability to work as a single system.Indian Side is predominantly armed to engage two modes of level 1 engagements, the direct fire from Pakistani posts and the patrol engagement with the insurgents. The permeation of 7.62x39 platforms has been primarily due to it's exceptional performance in close range engagements as the IA experiences in multiple occasions patrolling duties. Carl Gustav with the HEDP rounds being a prominent fixture in most of the LOC posts is a huge force multiplier for the Indian Army.


    Gap:

    Battle Rifle: Pakistani G3's will out shoot a Insas 1B1/AKM/VZ58's due to it;s inherent ballistic nature,
    Precision Rifle: The Steyr SSG 69 has better accuracy than the SVD Dragunov, but SVD being Semi autu rifle has an advantage of followup shots. Another advantage that the SSG 69 hold over the Dragunov is the optics. 10x40 scopes on the SSG 69 have better sight picture than the PSO-1 on SVD's.
    Machine guns: MG3 is equivalent in performance to the belt fed PKM, but holds the advantage over the IA's Magazine fed Bren Light Machine gun.
    Logistics: Although the 7.62x 39 systems (akm and VZ58) have extremely good performance in close range engagement during patrols, the fact that Indian army posts tend to operate AKM alongside Insas can be frustrating during engagements. Brens and PKM's differ in caliber from the battle rifles. Only PKM's share caliber with SVD's.



    Future State:

    Indian Army must select the infantry rifle systems to function seamlessly in both the Level 1 Post exchanges as well as patrol engagements. The battle rifle systems and precision rifle system need to have the ballistic capability that can outgun the 7.62x51nato systems. The Machine gun system needs to be a system would have the capability to engage Pakistani Posts to inflict higher damage that the 7.62x51nato system have been able to.


    Solution Strategy:

    Indian army has been looking at different battle rifle systems to replace the the Insas System. but the need is to not just change one system in the mix but all three system on platoon level. As Indian army is challenged with the medium to long range system for Post exchange and short range performance for patrol ambushes, it needs a 6.8 SPC or a 6.5 Grendel, caliber weapon that can discharge both of the roles. This would remove the need for two dissimilar infantry battle rifles in the post.

    Precision system: Either of the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 grendel with a precision barrel and variable scope system on a AR15 Platform can be used to replace the SVD Dragunov DMR rifle.

    For the machine gun solution, a system like the Kord 12.7×108mm would be a leap forward compared to the Bren and PKM systems used by the Indian Army, the ballistic trajectory and terminal ballistics are substantially superior to 7.6251 and 7.62x54R traditionally used by the Indian Army in past. With Kord as the main machine gun system for Indian posts, an auxiliary OFB Vidhwansak can be fielded in post as it shares the 12.7x108mm cartridge. Another option is the GAU-19/A chambered in .50 Bmg. Three Barrel Gatling gun at the Machine gun posts would be terrifying proposition for the both the opposing Pakistani posts as well as insurgents trying to break through.

    The gaps in the ballistic nature and logistical differences of dissimilar systems may not seem like an issue, but might became a life and death situation when the first shots are fired. The mishmash of system in the Indian posts can hinder it from seamlessly performing as one unit. Inducting calibers which can provide the best possible ballistic performance, and superior firepower can not only deter Level 1 engagements but also affect the morale of the opposition forcing them to change tactics. Given that ample opportunities to field-test such systems in real time, The Indian Army can start rapid experiments for observe the impact of these systems in the LOC to see it's effect on the ground situation. With a semi-active battlefield, it gives the Indian army tremendous opportunity to combat test the small arm systems to evaluate the efficacy of different systems that can fit in as the replacement for aging systems and get a substantial tactical advantage against the Pakistani forces.

    @PARIKRAMA Please tag others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
  2. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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  3. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Cont'd

    Level 2 Engagement:

    Current state


    Level II engagement is escalation of small arms fire to small caliber artillery to supplement the level I engagement. Pakistan and India utilizes numerous calibers of Mortars and recoil-less rifles for indirect and direct fire solutions receptively. In the equation there are 105mm light field guns/howitzers which are used in a transitional roles in both Level II and Level III engagements.

    Pakistan's Level II systems:

    Direct Fire Solutions: Pakistan army and non state actors routinely utilizes the RPG 7 system as a direct fire solution towards Indian army posts and Patrol routes. In addition to to RPG 7, PA has a limited number of Milkor Multiple grenade launchers which it utilizes both in level one and Level II engagements. Most of the Carl Gustavs in PA inventory are for it's elite SSG elite squads. Pakistani Army does make good use of the 85mm Type 56 cannon (Chinese license copy of the85-mm divisional gun D-44 ) in direct fire roles sometimes to target Indian posts from higher altitudes.

    RPG 7
    rpg7.jpg


    Mk19 Grenade launchers
    mk18 AGL.jpg

    Type 54

    Type 54 M30 pakistan.jpg


    Type 84 (D30 clone)
    Type 85 D30 PA.jpg

    Indirect fire solutions:

    Mortars: The back bone of Pakistani Mortars is the 120 mm Mortars produced by the POF with the range of above 6500 meters. In addition to the 120 mm mortars, the PA also uses the 81 mm mortars and 60mm HE and smoke mortars.

    81mm Mortar
    PA 81mm.jpg

    120mm Mortar

    PA 120mm.JPG
    Towed Arty : Pakistan Army for short range engagement extensively utilizes it's QF-25 quarter pounder, This is a short stubby WWII styled towed arty, but fires a pretty lethal 86.7mm caliber round and has an effective range of about 12km's. In addition to the QF25, the type 56 again chambered in 85mm, Type 54's and type 60's chambered in 122mm's are extensively used for indirect fire. Interestingly the 105mm M101's are placed along the International Border and not the LOC and are rarely used in Escalations across the LOC.

    QF 25:

    qf25.jpg


    Indian Level II Systems:

    Direct Fire Solutions:
    MGL 40 mm, AGS 30mm, are main stays of the LOC and International Border on the Indian side. These low velocity grenade launchers are routinely used to target posts in close proximity and provide suppression mode during Level I and II engagements. For the same possible outcomes, Carl Gustavs are used in large quantities across the LOC, a mojor chunk of the MKII Carl Gustavs are also used in the counter insurgencies in urban environment. 106mm recoiless (the true champion of Assal Uttar- Patton nagar) although are probably one of the best bunker busters, are slowly being phased out due to their poor range.

    AGS 17 Auto Grenade Launcher
    IA AGL.jpg

    AGS 30 Auto Grenade Launcher

    AGS30.jpg


    Indirect Fire Solutions: India primarily relies on it's Mortars and 105mm light field guns for Level II indirect fire solutions. One of the start differences between Indian Army and Pakistani army is, Indian Mortar caliber that is most frequently fielded are the 81mm mortars, and the 51mm light mortars. India does field 120mm Mortars but in far smaller number in comparison to the Pakistani Army.

    Indian Army Mortars:

    mortar ofb.jpg

    Light field gun 105 mm
    ifg.jpg


    GAP

    Compared to Pakistani solutions in both direct and indirect fire, Indian systems lack the punch it needs drive the intent of escalation. One of the stark contrast between the Indian and Pakistani sides is short range artillery like QF95 quarter pounder being still employed by PA, which have been phased away by the Indian Army. Although an indirect fire short range solution was removed, a replacement for the application was never really realized.

    Future state:

    Level II escalations intent is to warn the opposition to realize the potential escalation and expedite the process of resolution, either through force or through negotiations. Given that Pakistan's indirect firing solutions actually stack up better than India, there is no point in building the infrastructure to provide similar response.Rather the approach should be towards fielding solutions to create a new Level II paradigm which looks more towards the transient stage of Level III engagement.



    Solution Strategy:

    120mm Mortars: Indian Army's focus should move from 81mm mortars to 120m mortars as the mainstay for the border engagement. Huge focus on GPS guidance systems for 120 mm mortars is the need of the hour. Given the ample opportunities to test the system even laser targeting systems (like the copperhead) can play a large role on increasing the effectiveness of India's limited 120mm Mortar inventory.

    Battlefield Missile: Given that Indian predicament of it's engagements with Pakistan is barely encountered by any other nation around the world, the solution for escalatory regime also needs to be unique. One of the needs for Indian Army is to field a missile specific to it's requirements. A thermobaric all weather day/night, solid fueled, GPS/Laser guided ground attack missile with a range around 20-25 Kms is the need of the hour for the armed forces. Hardened shelters for VLS units, with on demand control and targeting to be provided by post commander.

    40 mm Direct fire solution: With a direct fire autcannons adapted from Ack ack systems like the Bofors 70, or even a 30mm shipunov variant in direct role can supplement the existing post to post exchanges.

    Transient Level III restructuring: One of the key requirements of an effective Level II solution is to enhance the damage dealt to the opposition and within a short time. 155 mm field howitzers need to be in permanent deployment to the LOC and International border. De-centralized units of 5 -8 howitzers Platoons for for covering 3 to 4 posts and provide copperhead like laser guided fire solutions right during the Level II escalations.

    India faces a significant challenge as Pakistani Army has significant advantage with the it's short range artillery with the type 54, type 80, and QF25 which are highly mobile, (literally can be towed by jeeps and land rovers), Pakistan Army in artillery role has the entire gambit of 85mm, 105mm, 122mm, and 155mm configurations, interestingly Pakistan utilities short range low trajectory artillery to punish Indian positions with far more effective damage compared to what India can respond with it's current option . Indian artillery on the other hand is reeling with obsolescence and lack of acquisitions. The ground reality is that Indian Army's roadmap for artillery acquisition and development is for the war it want's to fight, but not for the war it actually is fighting. India more than ever needs to plug the gaps in it's Light towed artillery, 120mm mortars, Direct fire solutions for the LOC and IB and start developing missile systems which it can utilize to save the lives of it's own troops.

    @Abingdonboy @R!CK @nair @SpArK @Ankit Kumar 001 @Hellfire @Vergennes @Gessler @vstol jockey
    @anant_s @PARIKRAMA @Levina
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
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  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    IFG covers an entire range from 6kms to 18kms and it is more effective than a mortar in direct firing role. We also use L-70 guns for medium range assaults besides 160mm mortar which packs double the punch of a 155mm shell.
     
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  5. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    160mm mortar? I don't recall us using M1943.. are the M66's in operation at the LOC?. L70's have very few all electric dive versions making them cumbersome and complicated for post deployment, and Army hasn't ordered any more of the upgraded electric drive L70's

    The unfortunate part is field guns are not mobilized often enough.
     
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  6. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Hi ; Should we buy 60 MM Mortars

    Pakistan uses 60 MM mortars which have a range of 2 Km
    where as our 51 MM mortars just have a range of 900 Metres
     
  7. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    51 mm mortars to me are reminiscent of the 37mm shovel mortars of the ww2. In my opinion there is no need to dillydally with 51mm/60mm. Smallest mortar should be the 81 mm, back bone should be 120mm mortars, and as Vstol pointed out the 160mm Isreali ones, which I am not sure about , would be a great addition. My info was like just 10 of them were bought for evaluations. I would be more than happy to see 160mm mortars in Indian Army, the only reason I am bit skeptical about the 160mm, because OFB does not produce any 160mm ammunition till date.
     
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  8. turkish

    turkish Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    If India wants to win this proxy war you need to destroy Paks economy or its purchasing power. Print 1 trillion Pakistan Rupees and send it through Afghanistan. Inflation will reach mile high and Anarchy will follow next!
     
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  9. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    How can that deliver doubel the punch of 155 mm shell. Can you please explain?
     
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    IA does have many such 160mm mortars in its inventory. The shell of a 155mm Bofors has a large weight of the shell casing itself plus it is shaped to withstand hypersonic speeds while the mortar round is not so aerodynamic and its shell casing is comparatively very light. The amount of explosive powder and shrapnel it carries is nearly double that of 155mm shell.
     
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  11. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Can you shed some light on the number of possible 160mm units, are they Israeli or Russian?
     

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